So the Emperor's identical twin Bob was at the Siege of Terra, right? After all, his absence is not explicitly mentioned.

Fine. Let's take out all the examples where there's a logical possibility that Titans were present. Oh, and anything that's more than a paragraph has the room to mention allies. If it doesn't, they weren't there.

C:SM 3e: White Panthers
C:SM 4e: Second Company fights Necrons, unsupported (and defensively)
C:SM 5e: Orar's Sepulchre (it's the whole chapter per another entry)
C:SM 5e: Hunt for Voldorius involves two companies against even more CSM and allies.
C:SM 5e: Purging of Contqual - Iron Hands vs. entire sub-sector.
C:SM 5e: The Zeist Campaign - Assorted collection of Space Marines in near Chapter strength.
C:SM 5e: Alaitoc vs. Invaders on home world
C:SM 5e: Emperor's Swords vs. Necrons on home world
C:SM 5e: Fire Lords vs. Necrons on same home world (yeah. They brought the Ad. Mech and Guard along on a personal vengeance crusade)

And, of course, I'm sure you can find me tons of examples where Space Marines had Warhounds to help...

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I'm rarely content with "hard" 0-x's that are put in for balance, rather than background, reasons.

That way lies the old Black Legion list; an unbalanced, inflexible mess of a thing.

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No need to be an arsehole

To have Marines in large campaign style wars doesn't make any sense without support , Codex SM is there to sell SM models, Badab FW books are written to sell Badab war SM kits.

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That's really the result of the various writers not stopping to consider how a force like Space marines would operate without the support they'd need. The fact that they don't have any organic air support like fighters is bizarre at best and would seem to imply that they're designed to always operate with the Imperial navy and it's carriers like the Imperial Guard. Only they don't in all this backstory, but never seem to run into the problems they should.

All these sources should [i[inform[/i] the list design, but should take a back seat to creating a playable list. Ideally, I'd like to see Warhounds being a fun and usefull alternative to Space marine equivalents, most likely Predator or Land raider formations.

Steve54

If you don't want me to point out when what you say is ridiculous, don't say things that are ridiculous.

First, it makes enough sense to pass in the madness that is 40K (Titans don't make sense, either, for that matter, but it doesn't seem to have stopped you taking Warhounds). Marines are capable enough to do some things, and can't do others. The worlds in 40K tend to have smaller-than-sensible populations, then have smaller-than-sensible armies drawn from those populations. Most 40K armies tend to be tactically and strategically unsophisticated and very unmaneuverable. Of course Marines can take them apart without outside help. They're all idiots (the Marines are just somewhat less idiotic).

Plus, Marines don't always have that choice. They don't own Titans. Titans are provided by another organization which doesn't necessarily like them or the Imperium. You go to war with the army of superhumans you have, not the army of superhumans you have plus the giant war walkers you want.

Would it make sense for Marines to take Warhounds where possible? Yes. Do they have the opportunity to take Warhounds whenever they want? No.

Second, the entirety of 40K background exists to sell models, which has not stopped people from insisting things be added, removed, or changed in accordance with that background. It's what we've got. Might as well work with it.

Also, since Forge World also produces Titans, it would certainly make sense for them to try to sell Titans alongside Badab War SM, n'est-ce pas? So if Titans don't show up that much, I think it suggests they weren't that involved.

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SK, warhounds are common enough that they're not goig to be removed. On the flipsidei think we can all agree that they shouldn't be the mainstay core of every competitive marine army?

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Hmm, I know what you mean, but in this case, a 0-1 restriction applying to the singlton is not preventing the player from taking pairs of Warhounds, merely from spaming singletons.

And I agree that we do not want to ban Warhounds all togther, merely to restrict the excessive use of Warhounds.

I don't see how making the jump that titans quite possibly were involved in a conflict from a paragraph not mentioning anything but a small snippet of a conflict involving SM is ridiculous when compared against assuming it was only SM involved in any conflict where they aren't expliclitly mentioned.

I didn't think you cared about current fluff anyway?

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0-1 really? Are we now down to picking on the marine list because of one set of stat's from one country?

Many other have said they don't see this warhound issue in their events. So they get hit too?

Meph... If others don't see the warhounds issue (i.e. a large majority of marine lists being formed around the warhounds) then it's also very likely they won't be hit by anything as it would have little to no effect on them.

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0-1 makes sense to me. Sometimes you get single Warhounds that have lost their packmate, but if you get two singletons, maybe they always try to team up to make a new pack?

E&C
I never said ban them. I'm just pointing out why their presence in 80% of EUK lists is ridiculous. Which it is. The Marines take more Titans than Guard right now. That's just wrong.

Steve54


I didn't, actually. I assumed Titans weren't there when allies of any kind were not mentioned. If there was even a hint that other forces were around (barring PDF, who tend to get everywhere), I erred on the side of caution and assumed Titans could have been there. If it even seemed like the sort of thing where the Guard would have likely been involved, I left it out. And even doing that I still got a rather sizable list. Hell, even when you take out the ones where it's theoretically possible but unlikely, it's STILL a pretty big list (a lot bigger than the list of Marines fighting with Titans).

That, and when there's a bunch of big examples with few or no Titans or allies, the idea that Titans and allies lurk throughout all the smaller examples seems a little...unlikely.



Not the case at all. Don't let E&C's claims to the contrary fool you.

I care about the fluff as a whole. If something was true in 1e, 2e, 3e and 4e, than it's still true in 5e, possibly even if it's been explicitly contradicted. GW's attitude to canon allows that sort of thing anyway. If something's not mentioned any more, all that means is that it's not mentioned any more. I just end up on the "old-fluff" side of the debate because lashing ourselves to the most recent codex is a much more popular approach.

I don't take old fluff as better than new. I just don't take it as particularly worse. It's just older. More fluff trumps less fluff, good fluff trumps bad fluff, new fluff trumps old fluff. The fact that Matt Ward wrote it doesn't make it intrinsically more (or less) valid than the fact that Jervis or Priestly or Chambers wrote it.

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Steve, have you ever played a tourney with marines in which you didn't take 2 single warhounds + 2 thunderbolts? Any single time?

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I've never taken 2 sets of thunderbolts, 2 warhounds everytime for the last few years but I didn't a couple of times before then when I took just Marines or a Reaver. Until the CAP changes tbolts were rare. I've also never taken Chaos marines without titans,

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If a player wants to play a Marine only force, they should use the Black Templar list.

So many of the recent suggestions are covered (one way or another) in the variant lists.

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