I don't know if this will help, but...

1) Units, even disorganized ones that are broken in game terms, will react to imminent threats. If the enemy gets close enough, they will mount some sort of action, so the enemy can't just walk past them blithely. Also, ZoC isn't just about what the unit does. It's also about how the enemy reacts to them. There's not some magic arrow pointing to the enemy from the sky saying "Broken!" Your troops don't know they are anything but a normally functioning enemy unit, so they will react with appropriate caution (e.g. "is this some sort of trick?... better be careful...).

2) A lot of movement and placement in the game is abstraction. There is no "charge between" because the rules are representing a line that doesn't have gaps, even though the models do. Scout units are dispersed wider, which is part of the justification for 10cm ZoC. Stands 20cm apart on the board aren't literally a group of guys over here and then another group 250 meters away. In the game world it is a long skirmish line with the individual troopers spread out over the entire space. Many are also using various forms of deception so the enemy doesn't know exactly where or how many they are. Even if they wanted to overrun them, they wouldn't know whether it's possible or how to do it.

3) Titans are still just one unit. They are a concentrated threat. They aren't generally known for their ability to snap-fire or hip-fire and they certainly aren't good at deceiving the enemy on the battlefield as to where or how many of them there are.

Huge debate. More than 2 years worth. That was following plenty of objective evidence of Eldar armies consistently being above average in dozens of tournaments (and certain configurations being consistently well above average).

You've commented on the Spirit Stone removal multiple times. To give you some background on that, they were added due to concerns about longer games and lack of Eldar staying power, in particular for use in scenarios (which should be a tiny consideration in a GT list). That happened within a couple months of the list being finalized, while several of the more active playtesters were coincidentally absent, so they received little testing. Most importantly, there were no accompanying point changes*. If ever there was a blatant reason for a nerfing, that's it.


They are always up for examination, but Rough Riders have been covered multiple times in the past and the results have been consistent through every debate - a few people think they are overpowered, a few people think they are fine, and the consensus develops that while they might be *slightly* overpowered, they are close enough for a niche unit.

If you feel strongly that is wrong, it's easy enough to generate lots of data. Run GT games against forces that have lots of Rough Riders and post the results. If RRs consistently turn the tide of games in favor of the IG, you'll find it easy to sway people to your opinion.


As a side note, if you want to compare units for balance, the best comparison is within an army list. Internal balance is always the most consistent in terms of the abstract factors to consider. If you are going to do cross-army comparisons, you have to take a huge array of factors which aren't easily quantified into consideration. For example, comparing RR to Eldar units as you did above means taking into account better SR, possibly better Initiative, Farsight and differences in deployment options (wraithgates and air assaults).


*except possibly Falcons, which were in flux right up to the end - my memory fails me

Both of these posts were greatly helpful Neal. Thank you.

As for RR's, I do not, nor have I ever believed that RR were game breakers. Only that they have so many special abilities piled on for so cheap. Even my stalwart IG-only opponent agrees that it is a sweet unit for a low points cost. And as was pointed out, even if they were increased to 200 pts, many players STILL wouldn't take them.

As with other GW games, did we ever get a feel for how much a special ability was "worth" points-wise? i.e. first strike = +5 points, each armor save value = + 5 pts. etc. ?

I was going to post an IG vs Eldar mounted unit comparison, but now I see that it would probably be wasted effort. Rough Riders are branded a niche unit and jet bikes are evidently a powerfully threatening unit.

I do not pretend to know nearly as much as you veterans, nor have I years and years of play experience. Indeed, my Epic experience at less than 5,000 points is maybe one game? So I do not have any of the small game context or feel for what it would be like to be able to actually fight over a blitzkrieg objective on Turn 2, etc. Suffice it to say that any observations I can share with this forum is from a HUGE battle perspective, one that is an enormous amount of fun in its own right and we believe expands the challenge and enjoyment of the game. If these insights can occasionally help the little battles be better, then that's a good thing.

I assume this is a forum for sharing, examining, debating, celebrating and whining. I expect over time we all do some of each.

Once again, thank you for the context Neal.

_________________
~Laserwolf

Yes, we know, the game was intended to be played in the 2000-5000 points range...

Sadly, that doesn't really work. The relative value of the special rules change, depending on the rest of the unit. First Strike is worth much more on a specialized assault unit, for example, compared to something with 6+/6+ CC/FF.

If you have a look here - http://epic-uk.co.uk/ukepicachampionship/albyr.php - for Steel Legion you'll see it has been fielded 61 times in Epic UK tournaments which are pretty competitive. Out of those 61 lists there are less than 30 Rough Rider fms taken. This alone lets me know that they might be good and even overpowered in some circumstances, but not broken in the standard 2k to 5k GTS game. Numbers don't lie and all that.

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And 125pt Hellhounds. :-)
And 75pt Griffons. :-)
And 175pt Leman Russes. :-)


<Thinks most of the upgrades are overpriced. :-P

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

a new harsher critical!

This I gotta see! No wonder Sgt Balicki didn't want to use the Epic UK rules... He fielded 7 Warhounds this last game (and 4 Reavers and a Warlord)


Edit: Just looked, it still just staggers.... big whoop

Damage Capacity 3, 2 Void Shields. Critical Hit Effect. The Warhound is caught off-balance and staggers. Move it D6cm in a random
direction. If this move takes the Warhound into impassable terrain or another unit it can't move over then it stops when it contacts the
obstruction and suffers an extra point of damage. If it staggers into or over any units then they will take a hit on a D6 roll of 6+ (make saving
throws for the units normally).

_________________
~Laserwolf

Yes, we know, the game was intended to be played in the 2000-5000 points range...

Stagger + an extra point of damage.

Epic-UK have had a note in their tournament packs for a while revising the critical. It's printed in their revised SM list and it will be in their IG when they revise it.

Excellent! Much better!

_________________
~Laserwolf

Yes, we know, the game was intended to be played in the 2000-5000 points range...

One list this game: IG
7 Warhound
4 Reaver
1 Warlord
6 fm Thunderbolts
3 fm Marauders
12 SHT
9 fm RR
7 fm Sentinel
21 Manticores (in several fms)
46 Leman Russ
21 Hydra
21 Basilisk
9 Hellhound
3 Bombard
3 Griffin
7 Full infantry company and 3 Armoured infantry
2 fm Storm Trooper/Valkarie
1 fm Vulture
1 fm Deathstrike
1 Spaceship

Eldar - Tried Yme-Loc Craftworld:
4 Revenant
4 Phantom
1 Warlock
6 fm Nightwings
2 fm Phoenix
3 Vampires
4 Storm Serpent
5 Cobra
10 Scorpion
8 Shadow Weaver
18 Fire Prism
14 Firestorm
78 Falcons
2 fm War walker
7 fm Rangers
2 fm Guardian + full support
12 Shining Spears
3 fm Swooping Hawks
3 x fm of 3 Warp Spider and 3 Banshee (in Vampires)
18 Vyoer
18 Jetbikes
6 Dark Reaper + 3 Wave Serpent
3 x fm of 3 Striking Scorpion + 2 Dire Avenger + 1 Reaper Exarch + 3 Wave Serpent
3 x fm of 3 Dire Avenger + 2 Fire Dragon + 1 Reaper Exarch + 3 Wave Serpent
Autarch + Avatar
Gate of Vaul

(I think I got it all listed)

_________________
~Laserwolf

Yes, we know, the game was intended to be played in the 2000-5000 points range...

Note that we have agreed that NetEA lists should also use the same new critical hit roll.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

And so Lsrwolf, your inference is that RRs are more usefull in larger point armies. Well, all army lists have 'favourite' formations at different army sizes, but that does not mean that they are overpowered. For example most Eldar armies field at least one set of Rangers which fulfill the 'scouting' role very well, and in larger armies you might well see a significant number of them.

E:A has two components to each formation:- The units, stats and composition of the formation, and the tactics employed both in positioning the formation's units and in interacting with other formations (both friends and enemies).
One example of tactics might be Clipping:- I was once able to clip some RRs with a trivial Eldar formation (probably Rangers), but I also declared the IG HQ company intermingled with the RRs and was lucky enough to win the assault, breaking both IG formations. That does not mean the Rangers are overpowered per se, merely that I was able to exploit the situation and had better resolution dice (unusually for me ).

Finally all lists have some formations that are better than others on a point-for-point basis (under particular circumstances); eg Terminators. However, even this does not make them 'overpowered' per se; try fielding an 'all-Terminator' army. You will find that the canny opponent will be able to out-manoeuver the Marines and pick off the terminator formations on by one.
So in this case, try fielding an 'all-RR' army (Something like 1x HQ company, 4x Inf companies and 9x RR platoons) - it would certainly be different and very challenging for a few opponents at least initially, but I am sure that you would find it hard even to draw after a while let alone win; the increased number of RR formations do not compensate for the lack of AA and AT weaponry and the limted mobility.