Being barged would be some kind of similar to Tank Shock in Wh40k.
So why would you Tank Shock your own troopers?

It's not "HONK-HONK! Out of my way!" it's "WROOOM! SPLATT!"

I would say that the intention of Barging is that a War-Engine with powerful CC-abilities should be able to get into base-to-base contact with more than only one enemy unit.
Else it's CC-stats would be wasted.
Note this does take into account the original rules, before the FAQ and the revised Assault rules.

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Good points on this and subsequent posts.

If the Krieg infantry in front of the Gorgon are making a counter-charge move (to make room for the Gorgon to get through) they have to move towards the nearest enemy unit (especially in within a Scout ZoC). There would have been many occasions in games we've played that would not have allowed the Gorgon to get to the front without barging it's own infantry out of the way.

In CC it's even worse. In almost all cases I've seen, MANY more than 6 stands of infantry have had to be moved to make room for the Gorgon to get to the enemy. However you view this, that is not acceptable to the barge 2units per DC rule.

Allowing friendly barging is complicated and unwieldy.

I have no doubt that in some cases the War Engine will be able to get to the front but I will not be garunteeing it in our upcomming tournament by allowing friendly barging. It will be more as a reward for the mixed WE/infantry player making good choices to prepare for the engagement.

There are enough people on this forum that share my point of view to give me confidence to play it this way (no friendly barging allowed). I also have no doubt that our local Krieg player will still find ways to win games without running over his own troops. He's a very good player and will change his tactics to follow the rules.

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I'd be very happy if the Krieg player played that formation. He just removed a large portion of his FF attacks (in a clipping assault) and that makes the combat much more interesting (instead of a lay down misere for the Krieg opponent).

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Evil & Chaos is right on that point. The Krieg list only works with assault infantry (I mean that literally btw, you cannot actually make a list without them as the only other core formation has a 1 per 1500 restriction), and without their transport option they'd be amongst the worst 300-400pt assault formations in the game.
They are Armour - and have 1 stubber per 20 stands, so have to be judged in context of the army.




I've been playing Krieg. I then reversed roles and played Necrons vs Krieg and won that, mainly because I outmanouvered the large infantry formations and hit one end of their army extremely hard while the majority were well outside of range (which Necrons and most teleporters can do extremely easily).
I think the first step is understanding what you are up against when you fight Krieg (remarkably poorly armed guardsmen who live to assault) and that takes people by surprise.



That's fine, you have put a lot of work into this tournament and I am happy to use whatever house rules you want.

In the meantime I have a couple pics from games, so I will whip up a couple illustrations of what we've all been talking about.

Here for your viewing pleasure I have made some illustrations. They are quick and a bit scruffy, but I was lucky enough to have a picture that had a measuring tape on the bottom, so they should suffice.

Since we've talked a lot about best case scenarios involving everything being in range and in perfect position the first thing worth noting is the size of the formation when deployed (which it usually needs to be vs armies with teleport (who can otherwise lock the people inside) or TK weapons). It's pretty big.


1) Deployed


2) Assaulted, in this case by space marines but terminators or any CC unit should be a better choice.


3) Assaulted after a narrower deployment


4) Counter charge that affects infantry


5) Controversial version of counter charge that barges enemy infantry


6) Counter-charge against a fire fight



Number 5 above is very unpopular, as barging enemies and forcing them out of base contact with friends would be very powerful.

Number 6 has the gorgon counter charging the enemy in a manner that requires un-engaged friendly troops to move out of the way. If this type of manouvre is what is being called 'barging friends' then I'd defend it since it fits the rules of infantry moving out of the way of AV/WE, and because the alternative is this formation just doesn't work since the Gorgon would almost always be out of combat.

In fact, come to think of it even friendly infantry squads laid vertical against the side of the Gorgon would be enough to block the 4cm-long gorgon from moving unless the base was filed down to exactly 1cm wide.
Edit: here is an extra pic.

Ok, so heres the way i see it.
a gorgon cannot barge through friendly troops. under any circumstances. ever.
this means that it cannot make friendly troops move their position in any way, as doing so will constitute to an extent, barging.

a gorgon can move over friendly troops at no penalty, but cannot end on top of them in any way. at no point does the "infantry move out of the way" part of the fluff section of this rule translate into infantry bases altering their position.
this means that if a gorgon cannot move past a friendly trooper then it will have to stop before any part of its base overlaps any part of the troopers base.

so, a gorgon can move to the front of a formation and absorb hits if either:
A) there was sufficient space past the furthermost infantryman to do so
B) if the infantrymans countercharge allows it to make sufficient space past the last infantryman to do so (note that this infantrymans countercharge must still follow all applicable rules, it cannot move if it is in base to base with an enemy figure, and it must move DIRECTLY towards the closest enemy figure. that means that 4, 5 and 6 are all definitely against the rules, and 2 seems to be based on those arrows, as the two SM bases in contact with the first guardsman are still closer than the ones to the sides that are being countercharged, until a second base is in contact with them, they're still valid countercharge targets, and thus must be charged first.)

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I'd prefer it if we don't use the term house rules as that implies that I'm changing the rules in some way.
I am not changing the rules at all. I'm following the rules and FAQ to the letter.

I agree completely with Jaggedtoothgrin's comments.

In your last picture Matt, The Gorgon can move over the top of the Guardsmen as there is clear space on the other side of them to fit the Gorgon there. The Gorgon does not have to turn to face the enemy in it's counter-charge. The Gorgon can also move around the Guardsmen and easily get in front of them.

It's importanat to note that Evil & Chaos wrote the Krieg list.
His playtests were performed with no friendly barging allowed.
At the moment, he has also stated that he does not think that friendly barging should be allowed.

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As quoted "list shouldn't wag the rules".

BTW, 'friendly barging' would greatly enhance the Tyranid list I use (Jormugandr) and it certainly wasn't written with this rule change in mind.

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Unless you were using bog-standard GW Gorgons.



Between the 12mm standard long bases and the ~27mm long classic Gorgon (or is it a CRASSUS?) suddenly you've got no problem nosing the Gorgon into contact.

Of course you do have the problem: what if it can 'overrun' its friendlies satisfactorily, but must 'barge' aside enemies in CC contact with the friendlies?

The question does raise one very squirrely issue with War Engines and model scale: treating these things as true scale, and allowing variable base sizes can make for some very weird tactical machinations when it comes time for close combat and firefight.



My impression is that this issue falls in the realm of micro-balance... especially because well-chosen miniatures can significantly increase Krieg's ability to use it's Gorgons as meat shields.

With number 6 the two inf stands could counter charge by rotating, thus clearing a path for the WE to move legally.

Now as a WE the gorgon would block quite a few stands from FF'ing so may end up being worse for the Krieg in that particular setup.

Unless I'm mistaken, there currently aren't any facing rules, or directives on turning or moving, for movement*. It should be argued that a unit can't rotate to move closer to the enemy (not in the rules IIRC)**, but there's nothing that says a unit of any kind (War Engine or otherwise) must be placed facing forward. In fact it explicitly states (1.7 They may turn freely as they move.), and turning has no cost. If a War Engine wants to move forwards, backwards, or laterally, there's nothing to stop that, currently.

* There are arcs for fire, but that's it, I think.

** Currently I can find nothing that says where you measure from. If you measure from closest to enemy base edge, to closest to enemy base edge, rotation becomes mostly irrelevant. If you measure center of base, to center of base, some units can gain a distinct advantage.

So there's nothing stopping the Gorgon in the above picture, from doing a sidestep to the left. With a 20mm wide base, it'd clear those infantry.

It's one of the issues with non-standardized base sizes, and an expectation rather than a codification of the movement rules.

Morgan Vening

I'm with Jaggedtoothgrin and Onyx here: 'Friendly' barging should *not*be allowed.

Essentially it is up to the player to move his units in such a way that he makes the best use of them. If they get stuck out of position (because they did not start in a good arrangemement, or because of superior manoeuvering by the enemy) then it is his bad luck.

One final point that has not been discussed here and which is extremely pertinent; although vehicles may move over infantry, infantry may not move over vehicles. So once the WE is moved into position, I would expect the infantry countercharges to move around it (as the most 'direct' path open to them). The point here is that there is nothing in the rules that forces a player to move his units in a particular order - the only constraints being the implied lack of a counter-charge if a defender is already in BtB with an attacker - so move your units in the most appropriate order!

On Matt-Shadowlord's most helpfull images:-
I would expect the Gorgon to skirt his own units (which are 4cm long), and be placed on one end of his own infantry (north or south in the picture).

Note, if he had 6 infantry laid out like this, the Gorgon would not have sufficient movement to countercharge into contact (as it would have to skirt around two sides of an infantry base or 5.5cm). This would be an example of 'poor' positioning by the Krieg player



Not allowed at all (IMHO)



Here, all the player needs to do is move the Gorgon North (or south) around one end of the infantry. I see no reason to 'barge' here at all!



Here the Gorgon can move over the infantry as it can move 5cm, and it is 3cm the infantry are 1.5 cm wide - a total of 4.5cm
(note, here I would also allow it to move over the older 2cm bases for the same reason)


Finally E&C (and others) make an extremely valid point that the Krieg player does not need to disembark all his units; as there are 20 units, he could probably keep up to half of them in the Gorgons and still win most engagements as these units still coount in the resolutioin, so even if all the outside infantry are wiped out, he is still likely to double outnumber the opponents so starting at least +2 up.

Here the Gorgon can move over the infantry as it can move 5cm, and it is 3cm the infantry are 1.5 cm wide - a total of 4.5cm
(note, here I would also allow it to move over the older 2cm bases for the same reason)
[/quote]

You mean 3 CM wide... i.e. it, um, sidesteps, over the infantry to present its flank?

... duly noted, by the way: I will not base my krieg infantry on 25mm rounds... or my Gorgons on 40x60 bases.

By the way it's not clear what, exactly, you'd disallow in terms of barging enemy infantry that have established contact with friendly infantry: 1) fairly clearly, the WE should not be able to barge the enemy infantry out of btb/CC contact.
But does this mean you'd:
A) disallow any barging of enemy units already locked in melee?
B) allow enemy units to be displaced to the maximum extent they could move before being broken out of melee?
or
C) allow enemy units to be barged to the extent that the war engines movement allows, then reposition friendlies to maintain CC with them.

I mention this because Neal's answer seems to come because he sees "C" as preferable to "A" or "B."

For my part, I view this whole debate as a result of the -- regrettably -- fiddly character of CC and firefight engagements. This subset of rules that provide some interesting sub-games in setting up assaults, but also lead to propagating complexities and ambiguities when allowed to resonate with a range of special abilities (sniper, war engine, first strike, scout, etc.).

IMHO, basing is a different subject that will confuse this debate, so best not to go there for the moment However, if you read 1.7.2 carefully you will note that it refers to moving over the model (rather than the base), and this is why I would permit the movement I specified.

As there is no 'facing' as such for movement, I would allow movement in any direction (including sideways) without penalty***

On barging, I would definitely disallow barging any friends as I have tried to demonstrate above. But you raise a very interesting question regarding barging enemy units that are in contact with friends. Here there is evidently a conflict, so I would allow barging enemy units as long as

1. No friendly unit is moved
2. Any Btb contact between opposing units is maintained (so you can 'barge' these enemy units, but only a small distance)

(so b. in your question). If we extend this to c. that is effectively allowing the movement of friendly units, which opens up too many questions - so while appealing, I think we must reject this.

Bear in mind that the rule has to apply to all situations both in normal movement and assaults, not just to this specific question of countercharging. Also, because of the small distances involved and the general 'mechanics' of the situation, it is going to be hard to actually engineer this situation


Note
*** Facing is important for firing, so you need to be carefull how you end up rather than how you start a move.

The Barging Questions

I've tried to boil down the crux of the 'Friendly Barging' question into as simple a form as possible, this time actually using some models.

This shows an example of an assault, just before the War Engine makes a counter charge. As you can see, 4 enemy stands have contacted the friendly infantry.



The War Engine then makes a counter charge and barges the enemy.

Option 1: The friendly infantry's position cannot be changed by a barge move, so they are ripped out of base contact with the enemy who are now in contact with the war engine.



Option 2: The friendly infantry's position can be changed by a barge move, so they are dragged along with the enemy who are now also in contact with the war engine. (This is how I play these rules; Option 1 could be unfair to the attacker in many cases, since they would not want to lose contact with the softer targets they are assaulting)




The next pic shows a new assault. In this one, the SM have gone in to base contact with two friendly infantry, and the WE is about to counter charge them.



If we accept that the friendly infantry can be dragged along with the enemy rather than lose base contact, then it is possible for the WE's barge move to adjust their position enough to give it space to finish its move.



So of the 2 options, I think the 2nd is a more accurate reflection of the rules, and less likely to cause problems than being able to rip friendly units out of contact with enemies because their position can't be affected when the enemies are moved.
Would you agree?