The rules should wag the list, not the other way around.

If friendly semi-barging becomes officially allowed, we can look again at the Krieg list and see if it needs changing. Other lists too could be affected by this (Basically any list that allows you to attach well armoured AV's to infantry formations, or vice-versa. For example Stompas attached to Ork infantry formations).

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I was just using the FF example as the extreme. If the WE is barging an already engaged friendly model I'd allow both to the barged, but the friendly would count as one of the units for the per DC calculation of how many units the WE can barge.

If you want to use your gorgons as a RA shield place them out front along the most likely attack vector not buried in your formations. To allow them to barge over your infantry if they have been badly positioned is, in my estimation, a little bit too good (and it is only a little )

Definitely, though it's up to the player to use them effectively. They should be leading the formation if the player wants to use them to soak up hits. But, they can't be everywhere at once and allowing them to barge friendlies seems to fly in the face of that.

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Ginger: That potential for manipulation is why I said it had to be limited in application. Just don't let WEs bump infantry past their normal move distance and that goes away. I doubt there's a way to reasonably write that up as a rule, but "just don't be cheesy in how you handle it" should take care of most players.


Onyx: I get what you are saying, but this doesn't just apply to Krieg. It applies to any mixed infantry formation, whether that's attached WE transport, separate WE transport, plain attached WEs or intermingled formations. I agree completely that it has a genuine and serious effect on play, but that goes both ways.

If you don't let a WE take a countercharge that can move friendly infantry, you make it impossible for infantry to screen War Engines because they blockade them in place. Most War Engines are 3-4cm minimum and can only move 5cm in a countercharge. That means they can only clear 1-2cm of area around them, which is not enough for them to cross over screening infantry to hit the enemy. Something like a Warlord Titan could literally never countercharge to CC if infantry were nearby, because it only has a 5cm countercharge and a 6cm base. Even something relatively small with a 10cm countercharge, like an Ork Battlefortress, is effectively only going to be able to clear infantry that are in base contact with itself, so any dispersal of the formation still pins it.

In other words, you've basically reversed the situation. Only the fastest WEs have a remote possibility of ever being able to soak hits in an assault because it is nearly impossible to reach base contact. All combined formations become more vulnerable. A formation that happens to be CC WE and FF infantry becomes vastly more vulnerable in assaults, as base contacting the infantry simultaneously stops their FF and stops the WE's CC ability.

This "countercharge to the front" has never been a problem with other combined infantry/WE formations. I'm inclined to think that if it is a problem with Krieg, it's a problem with Krieg.

I'd be surprised.
Its recent run of success in an australian campaign has been at the hands of a skillful player against a lot of newbie or unlucky*** players, by all accounts.

Previous to this campaign, it's generally been regarded as slightly sub-par on the power scale.

***A report of 6 TK(d3) shots against Gorgons in one game, with every single shot missing.

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I can agree with that. But taking it to a generic level, should you be able to outmaneuver "shielding" units - it would make such formations very weak when assaulted compared to how they do when they initiate the assault. If outmaneuvering them shouldn't be an (easy) option, I'd suggest just allowing friendly barging and be done with it - much shorter FAQ.

Is deciding the FAQ based on how the NetERC would like the game to be, as opposed to how they read the rules, an option?

After some consideration I've come back down on the "No, it should not be allowed" side.

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Maybe I'm missing something, but pure FF should not be a problem. Move the WE, then move the infantry around it (because the WE is impassable to the infantry). If someone has placed their infantry far enough away that the WE cannot cross them, the point is moot.


That's the situation in question, so we are in agreement.


I'm not opposed to this. I had thought perhaps the barge limit should only apply to the enemy because only the enemy is a threat, attempting to hinder the WE. That would stick nicely with RAW, which are only in terms of enemy contact. However, I could see a "friendly fire/gumming up the works" argument for having the friendly units count as well.


Again, I might have misunderstood, but I don't think this is the problem.


As noted, it applies to non-attached WE transport, non-transport attached WEs and intermingled formations as well - SHT Company with Fire Support platoons attached, Plague Towers hauling Covens, etc..

Also, it just occurred to me that it would occasionally be relevant for nearby but non-intermingled formations. An assault against a WE with an infantry screen, Engaging only the WE so the infantry cannot countercharge, would keep the infantry line in place to hinder the WE.

When there are no directly applicable RAW, absolutely.

Do you mean a friendly model already in base to base? "Engaged" could be read as "directly engaged" as in "rolling a FF or CC attack". I can live with barging friendlies that are in base-to-base and having them count against the WEs maximum base-contact limit, that seems like a good compromise.

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It could very well be that you and I are attempting to answer different questions Neal!

I think the question is whether a WE can use its counter charge barge ability to move to the front of the formation and take the hits when neither are engaged, and there is no way the WE could be the first unit for allocation without barging only friendly units.


Dave, I mean if the friendly unit I want to barge is in base to base with an enemy unit before the WE moves then I'd say it can barge both.

So... the infantry are on a base-to-base line, 3cm in front of the Gorgon, so there's space for the Gorgon to move between and not enough movement to cross the line completely? Is that the kind of think you're picturing?

If so, you wouldn't need to move the WE first and the whole "barging" issue is moot. The infantry could just move a small distance and rotate the stands as part of their movement, opening up the gap before the WE moves. With lines representing infantry stands, it would look something like this:

enemy............enemy
_ _ ..... =>..... /WE\
WE

Obviously, the WE would actually be slightly in front of the infantry - limits of ascii art and all that.

I could see there might be some situations of poor placement where that's not possible (an entire herd of infantry crammed into a block) but, again, unless I'm missing something, it would be hard for the enemy to exploit this in any meaningful way.

I could be thinking that the engaged infantry can't counter charge as you can't get much nearer than base to base, and a counter charge has to be towards the nearest enemy.... and if there isn't a WE sized gap then its stuck behind, or in the FF case if front of the inf were 4cm in front of the WE without a gap then again can it barge?

Then I'd say the mixed War Engine/infantry formation just got out played. War Engines should not be able to stomp over friendly units to get to the enemy. The FAQ says that and it makes the most sense to play that way.

Parking a Gorgon (or any high armour War Engine) inside 10 stands of guardsmen (or any weak infantry), and knowing that whatever direction the enemy attacks from, there'll be 4+ reinforced armour in the way is not good game play. It sucks the life out of games.

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The picture in this post is an example of how it could be kept out of CC if it can't barge friendlies: viewtopic.php?p=403761#p403761

(assuming that it doesn't have movement to go around, but can just reach the termies if it goes through the infantry).