I would note that pretty much any SHT type can be built as a Minorus variant.

Even better, they would represent 'enhanced' SHTs with void shields kept for ad mech forces only.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

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"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Different formation names is still a cosmetic change. Sizes help, but what do you suggest with superheavies? More than three in a company? Less? How about artillery? Should skitarii only get manticores and only three per detachment? What's wrong with using Minorus in these roles? Fluff says they are plentiful but I can't say I every saw many lists with them at all when the SHT and Artillery were around.


I agree this would be good, but what types can we add? There isn't a whole lot of info out there so what fits that aren't already in the list? About the only thing I can think of would be the robots which could be a nice addition regardless of the gray area on their existence in modern 40k.


I agree this would be a good change. I'd actually advocate removing some of the space craft though. They are expensive models and as near as I can tell no one ever takes them.


This goes back to the first point. Sure they CAN since they make it, but SHOULD they have it in light of gameplay? What makes having the SHT better than using minorus? Or why even bother with minorus when you could just use a SHT?

On the minorus thing, it seems that quite a few people (ok two or three ) believe them to be rare. If you check out that link Glyn posted with the relevant sections from Dark Apostle, the things are basically 1:1 with the infantry. If they are that common and they can mount just about any weapon they want, they could pretty easily take the place of SHT.

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-Vaaish

I guess the minoris thing comes down to an individual opinion about whether or not you feel what's presented in Dark apostle ties in with the rest of the 40k universe. Black library authors have been known to go a bit OTT and push artistic license.



Would it sound odd to say that I'd be happier if the minoris was presented as the advanced SHT with lots of weapon options and that I'd probably be more encouraged to convert a crazy admech version (probably like a small ordinatus majoris).

There's some weird psychology in there and I feel very conflicted, good job nobodies mentioned mothers

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You see a mouse trap? I see free cheese and a f*cking challenge! - Scroobius Pip

but you can model and field a minouris as an advanced version of a SHT. A few people do already.

but they're a really fun modelling option for those of us who like go a bit frankenstein with our bits box. And while the Ordinatus Majorus are as rare as hens teeth, their little cousins needn't be so.

in a desperate posistion the Mechanicus will weaponise anything, bolt whatever they have together, rig up the duct tape and probably cackle madly while doing so.
Afterwards, anything that's less get dissembled and returned to whatever it was supposed to be, while anything that's proven itself truly impressive will get investigated to see if it can be proved to be a previously lost STC, or at least STC compliant.

Depending on the forgeworld, it might get rubber stamped and issued to others. I believe there's a few SHTs that owe their existence to this process.

This is exactly my thinking about the Mechanicus.
They're going to use some pretty crazy weapons rigs, and the fun in playing Mechanicus is to use those, not the Baneblade you borrowed from your Steel Legion army list, IMO.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Again, not that i intend to influence the argument here - i don't know EA anything like enough - but for what its worth i have to agree with E+C and the rest.

IMHO - writing lists is about offering gaming variety. The option to do a counts-as-army is already there if you'd prefer to use different models (just as i and many other before me have done.) In the future, if i ever master/get bored of the various IG lists i'll be looking at a new tactical challenge : Ad Mech looks like one of those options and i'd want it to play significantly differently. Now i may start just sub-ing models for a while, but if i like them enough i may end up going the whole hog and do a Vaaish (if only i had the skill - actually i'd prob look at the Distopian Wars models as a starting point.) Even with limited experience i can see the restriction of options is vital to this. Even if you're going to be your shadow swords as "super-SHT"s it changes the game significantly.

Plus, from a rules point of view (and having been involved in writing a couple of rules sets - just for local use) i can also empathise with the group here trying to write a balanced list - especially with tournament/competitive play in mind. Balancing something with a dozen unit types is tough enough. More options often just makes it open to abuse or too muddled to have any flavour. You all have my admiration ( for this and all the other supplements. )

As for a thought (and this is a question more than a suggestion) : if the feeling is that limiting AMTL to slow APCs would leave the list broken in terms of seizing objectives - would AMTL use any kind of skimmer/flier/transport ? (i know this starts to impinge on storm troopers/vultures.) Just my thoughts.

As for the Epic40k vs EA argument (and here i confess to being a paid up Jervis fan thinking that Epic40k was 2nd only to Blood Bowl for elegance - balance issues accepted) : Well i've overcome the first metal hurdle - not are they not the same game, they're not even trying to be the same kind of game. Now as to which i prefer - the jury is still out till i've played more EA... :-)

IIRC in Dark Apostle some terminators also took down an imperator, apparently by knocking on the door pretending to deliver a candygram. That novel is a bit OTT as far as upon what to base orders of battle...

Since we're delving into the uncertain world of the black library, there's a lot of fluff out there on AM infantry. Both Titanicus and Mechanicum have a fair amount of nuggets. So there is plenty of variety for infantry that has not been explored, not just robots. depending on what level of augmentation you want to represent, you could vary infantry types from cheap and plentiful FF/CC specialists, to moderately costed generalists, to slightly below space marines. IMO Praetorians should be dropped as a separate formation and relegated to an upgrade.

As for formation size, IG artillery comes in basically two sizes (besides some variant lists): 3 and 9. A formation size of 4-6 manticores would make a difference considering slow firing. Being able to lay 4BP every turn but paying a slight premium for the privilege is a distinguishing characteristic IMO. I would limit AMTL to manticores and basilisks; sure, the latter are "low tech", but they are ubiquitous. A unique formation size would be enough of a difference to justify inclusion (i.e. 4 basies and you get 2 templates - bam, they behave like better-ranged whirlwinds without having to stick a SM vehicle in the list). Besides artillery, you can experiment with formation composition, mixing infantry, and tanks in different ways.

If SHT are built from STC's, and perform the same functions as minoris (minorii?), why would the custodians of said STC's ignore them and build a non-STC minoris - especially when building SHT already?

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Let us playtest like the Greeks of old... You know the ones I mean

Ok. I think that right now we have so little info on the AdMech we really shouldn't be chucking out anything we do have on them. However, I think you'd be hard pressed to say the minorus is rare from what we have so far. If you want to take the general concept of minorus are pretty common from that passage even if they aren't 1:1 you are still looking at something that can show up multiple times in a list using different loadouts.

What specifically would you propose? I was under the impression that Hypaspists and Praetorians basically cover what we know exists of Skitarii forces outside of robots and that any variations fit under those two categories?

I would argue that you've effectively made two IG artillery detachments. Both manticores and basilisks are ubiquitous to IG and both would perform a similar role in the Skitarii list. Once you do things like add in SHT and Chimeras, what really makes the list different? Wouldn't you rather have a list that's unique rather than a guard variant?

Well, for starters, minorus sport void shields and modularity which means they can easily configure them for the mission. Second, they can mount any titan grade weapon system rather than being limited to the few on the known SHT patterns. That gives minorus options like Quake Cannons, Barrage Missiles, and TLD or even Plasma Destructors which SHT can't mount. Finally, who says they can just pump out the SHTs or that they aren't all shipped off for battles around the galaxy? All we know is that there are a whole lot of minorus and not a whole lot of SHT described in the Skitarii force.

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-Vaaish

I'm not sure that impression is correct.
Ok, if you want cheap, engagement specialists there is something akin to cultists - you could modify the demagogue stats to be more in-line with a tech-priest or skitarri leader, and/or get rid of the heavy stubber. Or, use the krieg infantry as a model. For more elite forces, you could adopt something like the stats of stormtroopers or SM scouts for the higher-end skitarii. Again, if you're going by fluff there's plenty of variation within the Hypaspist category. If you want a line-breaker formation, what's to stop you from combining a few units of infantry, a few APC's, and a few ignore cover weaponed tanks as a standard formation (i.e. not built in steel legion list fashion)? Yes, I've used a bunch of IG formation types in my examples, but that stats are what it important here, not the names.


Four basilisks or manticores makes an "IG artillery detachment"? In what list? I'm sorry, but artillery performs a "similar role" in all lists; if you're going to exclude a unit on that basis, then you better scrap any artillery. It sounds like any IG stuff in this list is going to prompt someone to say "it's just a guard variant".

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Let us playtest like the Greeks of old... You know the ones I mean

So you would see a more modular infantry composition? One where there would be a smaller core infantry phalanx but have a higher number of upgrades allowed within a selection of infantry types? That sounds fun depending on what types are available since it would place less emphasis on the individual types like Stormtroopers or CC specialists.

While that does provide a different approach for skitarii infantry, it still isn't going to change a whole lot of you can still take a backbone of IG arty or tanks. I'd still like to see robots come back, even if not as infantry but more AV or LV to give some competition to Sentinels or the more traditional tanks.



You mentioned 4-6 bassies or manticores and the more likely scenario is that people will want 6 or nothing. (In fact, I think at one point there was a 6 unit arty formation in the skitarii list). Six ends up being effectively the same as two IG detachments with maticores since you have three firing a turn. Bassies are a little different but again, if it looks like a duck...

You are free to say anything that pops up is going to get the "it's a guard variant list" but that's a pretty defeatist attitude. The point I'm making here is you can have a recipe for soup and add a bit more of this or that to flavor, but at the end of the day the combination of ingredients still makes the same soup. Is the issue with not having the manticores and basilisk really because Skitarii HAS to or SHOULD have them to be Skitarii or more to do with the availability of those models? The same for SHT?

The skitarii has some pretty unique units in it. Things like Rapiers, Mole Mortars, Ordinatus, and Knights. They are also things that haven't really shown up in lists when the more "mundane" guard equivalents are around like the SHT's, Artillery, and standard russes and that's what I see as the issue with including those things.

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-Vaaish

I don't know what peoples views are on lexicanum, but it's used many of older sources not discussed here and come up with this view.



see here for the rest of the article - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skitarii

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You see a mouse trap? I see free cheese and a f*cking challenge! - Scroobius Pip

huh, I thought we were discussing the age-old chimera/rhino problem?

now it's a wholesale rewriting of the list (again). please, some stability to let people (me included) actually build a force.

we could make the transport generic (like the 'land transporter' in the LatD list) although i think the stats for a rhino and chimera are quite different (one has a turret for a start). Or we could make a new vehicle. I'd prefer not to, but I imagine GW would if they ever released a AM 40k codex. But then we have people operating with unnecessarily limited model ranges.

I don't think we are talking about a wholesale rerwrite of the list. From what I've gathered this is mostly about what other units could be added to expand the flavor while allowing for more of the IGish units to return without feeling like red IG. I think most of what's in the list right now is pretty stable and good although it's a tad sparse.

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-Vaaish

If we're looking for ideas to make the list more appropriate and characterful and more different from IG:

Close combat infantry and/or fearless infantry could be different. We have Praetorians, but they’re expensive fearless Ogryn types with autocannons. Units of human combat servitors that had a 5+ save and fearless but no guns could definitely have a place in the list.

I also think the stats are poor for Hyspasists - to my mind basic Skitiarii should be BETTER armed than any Imperial Guardsmen, yet Hyspasists only have Heavy Bolters - one per stand true, but that’s just the same as Vanaheim troopers have and it feels really wrong for IG infantry to be out-ranging their Skitiarii equivalents.

I would make each Hyspasist have 1 x Plasma Gun shot AND 1 x Autocannon shot. I’d then create Sagitarii (heavy weapons units), with 1 x autocannon and 1 x Lascannon. Some number of Sagitarii could maybe be replacements for Hyspasists, rather than add-ons like IG fire support, so that the overall formation size stays lower and different.

I think Rapiers and Mole Mortars should be dropped - they're already used by the Barran list and the Krieg list respectively (where it’s now called a Mole Launcher), both of which are known to use cheap mass produced items. Surely a WAY more appropriate Ad-Mech artillery piece is the obvious Thunderfire Cannon? They’re a Techmarine only unit with the SMs so it makes perfect sense for them to have them.

I’ve said it before but we really should add Valdors in too - Forge World specifically mention in their background that they are commonly used in Ad-Mech armies, so they’ll obviously feature with them when FW get round to doing an army for them.

I like the idea of their artillery being a 4 strong Manticore formations (not 4-6 and probably without Basilisks), as this gives a more high-tech feel and different power to the unit. The extremely ancient and very high-tech Minotaur would also be very appropriate to include as a second sort of artillery for them, though these may be better in 3.

If a Repair special rule was added to Tech Priests and Forge Knights, as I’ve also suggested before, it would be very characterful and would help distinguish the list from IG more.

Personally I think the list has diverged so far from what I think the initial/general Ad-Mech list should be and what units my Martian Ad-Mech force would field that I’d refuse to use it and would write up a quite different Martian Ad-Mech alternative instead, but who knows when (or realistically if) that might happen, so I thought I’d throw all my various list ideas down, in-case any help.

Edited to add: maybe what's needed at this point is 2 (more eventually) lists being developed in parallel, with common things kept constant between them but different units. Label the existing list the Lucius list, since it was where the Macharius tank was created, and then create a second list - I would suggest an Arkurion Ad-Mech list, as it could have Super-Heavies (the Arkurion pattern is meant to be the most common pattern superheavy in the imperium according to their background) instead of Machariuses. Not much else is known about Arkurion so there'd be more freedom to add or subtract than with a more well known FW such as Mars. This way more people can be happy at once and it shouldn't be all that much extra work.