Really? Indecision and mistrust? Who isn't being decisive? Where is the mistrust? It seems to me that at the worst people have made time commitments that they have been unable to keep. That may be annoying to some, but shouldn't create mistrust.

How many lists are there? It seems like dozens. It stands to reason that if the community really wants an army book, it's going to have to put up with the delays inherent in any system in which you have to get input from a large number of independent volunteers. Putting all the stats in one place sounds nice, but the community is going to have to deal with herding cats every time the thing will need to be updated. Unless (at a minimum) a universal development cycle for all the lists is established and then synchronized with the army book revision cycle, this is going to be a recurring problem.

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Let us playtest like the Greeks of old... You know the ones I mean

Looks like we got the Australasian voting block on the same page

Maybe we should start EpicANZ?? (kidding)

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Uti possidetis, ita possideatis.
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An online epic force creator: Armyforge

Doesn't need to be that complicated.

If a new version of a list is ready in good time then include it in the army book, otherwise leave it until next time.

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Uti possidetis, ita possideatis.
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
An online epic force creator: Armyforge

So, every list developer is going to happily include imperfect versions of their pet projects when the army book revision can't wait? It seems like there's an issue with updating the lists and the first version doesn't exist yet.

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Let us playtest like the Greeks of old... You know the ones I mean

If the AC doesn't think it's ready then wait 'til next time.



not sure what you mean here??

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Uti possidetis, ita possideatis.
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
An online epic force creator: Armyforge

Indecision and mistrust? It's more like impatience and unneccessary hand-wringing from my perspective. Sure it's been a long time coming but what is the big deal? What's it really effecting? Tournament-allowed lists? Reducing confusion for new folks...? Then each TO can figure out what they'll allow for their own tournies and new people can come here and find lists. It really isn't the end of the world that we don't have a bonafide Army Book yet. Are we trying to change world populist view about Epic? I doubt we could if we tried - We're only trying to help ourselves in the main - so let's not get too worried about this issue and start dismantling the NetERC and replacing them with "freshblood" because they aren't around for a period of time. I'm willing to bet even newly chosen folks will have time-outs here on Taccomms so nothing will have changed even if we do change the "staff."

Worse comes to worst, heck, we just create threads in their proper racial forums here on taccomms with the up-to-date lists and sticky them at the top.

I have suggested this in the past. France did it and they are quite happy it seems.

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Frogbear is responsible for...
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You have lists (yes more than one) out there that have (had) not moved or progressed for upmteen months if not years. The fact that the AC or 'head of' did not allow them to move on to people that stated many times that they would take it over, and there was persistant outcry for updates and changes with little to no response, is evidence of either mistrust, indecision, boy's club mentality or ego. Take your pick.

Too many times people are not willing to speak up in the fear of offending the same people who may very well discount them as a viable alternative in the future. Other times it is just down to apathy as they believe things will never change. At present, the whole set up is too personal and needs to be at 'arms length'.

I know this is coming off strong however the truth is best served without ice.

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Frogbear is responsible for...
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When tournaments have confusion of what lists are being used, how is it that 'impatience' is used as a counter arguement. Afterall, I would hate to have jump packing Warlock Titans turn up to the next Heavy Bolter - a perfect example of confusion in lists.

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Frogbear is responsible for...
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I have suggested a number of times to Chroma over the past few years that if Champions cannot be bothered to get their lists in shape for an annual release, then they would have the shame of not having their lists in the Armies Book. I still think it'd be an effective way of going about things.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

To be honest, with the pitiful rate of playtests/batreps posted, I can see why there's no movement on a large proportion of lists. Heck, even when I offered to convert and paint miniatures for people to provide SW batreps it generated ... oh, let me think... zero batreps. Blaming the NetERC for apathy is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

Chroma mentioned to me ages ago that he was waiting for playtests/batreps to appear on the Nid list and very few appeared. So I would guess that word of mouth alone not to be enough data to progress the list as people would hope. Maybe people have their own agendas etc to drive a change - who knows? If they don't back it up with solid data then how can an AC draw any real conclusions?


I never said impatience was a counter to confusion over lists. The confusion comes from players not paying attention to player packs.... again player-apathy.

What's the system for playtesting? I tried to provide some feedback on the Nid list (and it did restart the spawning discussion), but there's no way I know of to provide feedback other than starting threads here on the forum. Seems pretty disorganized, and not something I'd really do until I had played something like a dozen game with a list. Wouldn't it be better to have a system to gather feedback from a larger number of players, or is it better to only trust feedback from people who have played a list a lot?

I provided quite a few playtest feedback for Nids 9.2.1 and also opened quite a few discussions after quite a few games to help move the list along - all of which amounted to silence and excuses. These are the facts.

Also painting a base or 1 squad for the 'best' playtest is not really inviting. Paint up a whole army for someone and you may just see some results. It's much like offering a $1 for a batrep. Not really worth the time to do it.

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Frogbear is responsible for...
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How about ACs that do not even provide a batrep for their own list? I know a few people that were playing a list that also placed their hands up and even produced a list or two. What happened? They elected someone to take over who normally promised a lot, and then dissapeared .. well where are they now (?) .... while many of the other options are still active participants to the site. So how is that not indicative of a a 'boy's club' mentality?

Do we really need to name the orphaned lists publicly to prove a point?

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Frogbear is responsible for...
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That might actually be of some use, as it can be difficult to discern between lists that are abandoned and lists that are complete. (Well at least for new people/long time absent etc). Also some lists which may have been thought abandoned may in fact have been deemed complete (and vice versa...)