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New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2

 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:09 am 
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jaldon454 wrote:
The spawning rule has been re-written.


My complaints still stand.


Much too wordy.
Not at all balanced between the different spawnable unit types. (All Inf. are not worth the same 1 spawn point for example)
Still screws with the BTS and Tie-breaker conditions.
Not representative of what a Tyranid army should be IMO (Tyranids do not "resurrect", they "spawn").

In toto, I dislike this. I'd rather see Spawning dropped entirely than see this inelegant rule adopted.

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 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:51 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I'd rather see Spawning dropped entirely than see this inelegant rule adopted.


Have cheaper units (to take into account spawning) with the loss of spawning even been trialled in all these years?

Buy a brood and you get it for way cheap, buy just a few and pay top points. That was Morgan's idea for a removal of spawning as a rule.

Funnily enough, it falls under KISS

Myself: I would like a spawning rule, yet one that is easy to play with and not one that has to be referred to every time it is used.

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Last edited by frogbear on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:53 am 
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Have cheaper units (to take into account spawning) with the loss of spawning even been trialled in all these years?

No, spawning has always been regarded as a fundamental part of the Tyranid army's style.

And it can work. Just not in the way that's currently being proposed.

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 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:56 am 
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frogbear wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
I'd rather see Spawning dropped entirely than see this inelegant rule adopted.


Have cheaper units (to take into account spawning) with the loss of spawning even been trialled in all these years?

Buy a brood and you get it for way cheap, buy just a few and pay top points. That was Morgan's idea for a removal of spawning as a rule.

Funnily enough, it falls under KISS

Myself: I would like a spawning rule, yet one that is easy to play with and not one that has to be referred to every time it is used.

IIRC spawning was only ever put in the original list by Jervis so as to allow an unending horde feel without requiring the nid player to have hundreds of gaunt models

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 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:57 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Much too wordy.


"Wordy" shouldn't be that important. ATSKNF is pretty wordy and exception-ridden for what it is (marines take half effect of BMs) but it's still pretty simple in play. Spawning rules should be judged on how they work in play (and if it's too easy to misunderstand the rule from the text), not the word count...

Is it a problem that the victory conditions almost break down when the Nid opponents play with the wrong strategy?


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 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:58 am 
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Surfacing does not count as movement for the purposes of triggering overwatch fire. Disembarking triggers overwatch fire as normal. If the tunneler surfaces on terrain that is impassable for it, under a friendly unit, or in an enemy zone of control then it is assumed that on-board sensor equipment will divert it towards another entry point. The unit should be moved by the opposing player to the nearest area where it can surface. Formations of multiple tunnelers need only record one location where they will surface. Place a unit at this location, or within 5cm of another unit that has already been placed, so long as all units are placed within 15cm of the location and on the appropriate half of the table. Tunnelers, and any units being transported in them, may take an action on the turn they appear.

I really hope nobody has a problem with this one.


Well seeing you will not even consider alternatives what does it matter?

If anything, by the RAW, disembarking troops can end up in the ZoC of the opponent. The tunneller and troops are two seperate units in the above rule.

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 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:01 am 
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IIRC spawning was only ever put in the original list by Jervis so as to allow an unending horde feel without requiring the nid player to have hundreds of gaunt models

I think it was also so as to give the army a different feel to other horde type armies (Orks, L&TD), something that's obviously pretty important.


I've played Tyranids enough over the years to know it would be really easy to make Spawning work right, too.

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 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:02 am 
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frogbear wrote:
If anything, by the RAW, disembarking troops can end up in the ZoC of the opponent. The tunneller and troops are two seperate units in the above rule.


Tunneling will be used by Squats too, shouldn't discussion on that rule be taken to EA Rules Amendments or something?


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 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:17 am 
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Ulrik wrote:
frogbear wrote:
If anything, by the RAW, disembarking troops can end up in the ZoC of the opponent. The tunneller and troops are two seperate units in the above rule.


Tunneling will be used by Squats too, shouldn't discussion on that rule be taken to EA Rules Amendments or something?


I tried to have it considered however the thread was hampered by troll activity.

I thought of bringing it up again (I may) however I have to wonder whether anyone else is interested because our absent or noncommittal NetERC certainly seems not to give a damn.

Here is an alternate that our group feels works better:

Quote:
Tunnelers use all the rules for Free Planetfall, with two exceptions.

When planning arrival, if a Tunneler formation will enter play on the opponent's half of the table, it must be Turn 2 or later. If it enters play
within 45cm of the opponent's Blitz, it must be Turn 3 or later.

After disembarking their cargo, but before beginning their action, the Dvergatal player may elect to remove all Tunnellers in the formation
without penalty (no BM's for losing them to 'out of formation'), as the tunnellers retreat back into the ground.


It is so much less wordy and more usable.

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 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:22 am 
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Onachus Resolute
While I am not opposed to this rule I would like the players to try battles with it and without it and give me their feedback on it. It is what I am planning on doing as I am not really to sure if it is needed, but then again I am not it isn’t.


The name needs to change. It is existant in the Dvergatal list and from what I know, no discussion has been had to either consolidate the rule or agree on who should have the name change.

The constant ignorance of this does not look good.

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 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:24 am 
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It is existant in the Dvergatal list and from what I know, no discussion has been had to either consolidate the rule or agree on who should have the name change.

That's your Chaos Squat list?

Is anyone even playing it?

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 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:28 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
It is existant in the Dvergatal list and from what I know, no discussion has been had to either consolidate the rule or agree on who should have the name change.

That's your Chaos Squat list?

Is anyone even playing it?


Actually it is the Dvergatal and Chaos Squats - Thanks

I could ask the same of the Blood Angels. Why not take some of their rules and rewrite them for another list? It is not being played either....

If we relied on the posting community to play the lists, how many lists would we actually have?

So how many specific army rules would you like me to go through and re-word for another list just to prove a point?

There is much to be said about common decency in regards to re-wording someone else's rule without even a discussion

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 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:31 am 
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Quote:
Instinctive
........It cannot be merged with other Tyranid formations


Any reason for this? It would make sense that if they found another synapse, this would not be an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:38 am 
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frogbear wrote:
Actually it is the Dvergatal and Chaos Squats - Thanks

I could ask the same of the Blood Angels. Why not take some of their rules and rewrite them for another list? It is not being played either....

I'm playing it personally, and I've had reports of it being played, too.

Quote:
There is much to be said about common decency in regards to re-wording someone else's rule without even a discussion

If one list is being played, and another isn't, then the active list should probably get primacy for wording, in general, IMHO.

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 Post subject: Re: New Tyranid COmbined Special Rules Part #2
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:44 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
If one list is being played, and another isn't, then the active list should probably get primacy for wording, in general, IMHO.


Well we play the Dvergatal here, is that enough for you? There have also been posts of people interested in the list as well.

Is it appropriate if I take the rules found in the Death Guard list and reword them under the same name for another Chaos list and play that a bit to gain a kind of justification for the fact that it is more recent? How is that acceptable?

I cannot believe that you would think it is OK to 'railroad' someone else who thought about a rule and now has it rewritten without consultation because the nid list got played yesterday. Shall I play the Dvergatal list tomorrow and post up a one line to give the end score just to satisfy such a silly justification? After all, it would be the most recently played and reported on...

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