For current discussion on Grey Knights see viewtopic.php?f=130&t=29853

Welcome to the Grey Knights Epic Armageddon army list discussion thread. The latest release document will always be available from this, the first post!

This army list is designed around the 2011 Grey Knights Warhammer 40,000 Codex, and as such represents strike force armies of the Grey Knights.
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Grey Knights 1.3.1 PDF

I'll have a proper look over it tomorrow, but for now I'd say there seems to be a lot of redundancy; lots of types of very similar infantry for example, and both argus and aquilla.

looking good to start with. my immediate thoughts are:
1) Where are the assassins?!
2) what purpose does fortitude serve on aircraft?

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~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

Assassins- one or two vindicare etc are just too teeny to worry about in epic and this army I feel- they could be modeled on an Inquisitors stand.
Fortitude on the aircraft- Whoops! I had meant to remove those notes. Will sneak that in as a fix.

well, i disagree on that point
the inquisitorial henchmen, while not grey knights, are pretty clearly the most important part of the new codex, they should be a bit more flexible in this list too (a character upgrade or two perhaps)
and there's simply no way the current stats could be an assassin.
one of the versions of epic i read recently had assassins as a single use TK(1) shot from the vindicare, you place him on a piece of terrain, shoot, then remove him as he disappears into the night.
an assault version for the callidus would be cool (teleport, infiltrator TK(1) attack. will kill its target, and possible even survive the assault to break the unit, but as a single model seems less likely)

if librarians and commissars get their own unit, assassins really should. they're a core part of the army, and they're AWESOME!

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~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

I will certainly consider it for a future draft if we can get some brainstorming on them going- I had many suggestions from friends such as using them as one off, make opponent reroll strategy ability (taking out command chain... but this is extreme cheese), one-shot character upgrades (more sensible to me) or units of assassins as 0-2 upgrades to henchmen formations- but in testing and theorising they all add too much power to henchmen formations which in turn takes the henchmen formations out of their role in the list which really is objective holding and fire support, with the Grey Knights strike force called in to do the offensive work (also between the 4 assassin temples and deathcult assassins, that is another five unit types to add in just as upgrades, which is too many to add for that purpose I reckon). As further design rationale for leaving henchmen formations as bare units, I think that the Henchmen formations should remain just that bit more vulnerable to being attacked and engaged than Grey Knights infantry formations are- this gives you the advantage of knowing that they are going to be a bit of an easier target for your opponent to try and attack- you can use this to your advantage!
I do think that assassins are more appropriate for the Inquisitorial list (found over in the other forces forum) rather than in this list which is more focused on how the grey knights space marines work, however, I am very happy to hear opinion otherwise.

If you have to add an assaisin, have it give the unit it upgrades the Sniper ability whether for shooting or close combat (one or the other). At a +25 point upgrade to a unit, I do not see it being an issue, and will allow people to model up the unit if they really feel inclined to pay for the upgrade.

Other option is that it upgrades the unit with a First Strike ability being either FF or CC, however I would find this less representative of a Vindicare, hence not the preferred option.

That's a simple solution.

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Yep, thats one idea: is it more of a concession than addition for assassin fans out there? However it's a good way to fill point gaps too ;-)

Oh, to fill out the +25 points, you could also add Invulnerable Save in with Sniper.

I daresay no-one should have an issue with that upgrade.

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I suppose sniper and scout may be too difficult to use in a mixed formation (possibly the extra bubble area on a big unit is worth more than 25)
EDIT: just realised that makes them the same price as imperial guard snipers with about the same stats- not too rorty i reckon.

i have an issue with that upgrade, not its value for points, but if you think a 5+ff score is representative of a vindicare assassin...
the "first strike" in CC seems like a good way to represent death cult assassins, but not for one of the proper temples.

i honestly dont see any particular reason to represent a culexus in epic scale, its specialty (killing psykers) doesnt really exist in the epic ruleset, where as the other 3 do, if it was me, i'd have the evesor and the callidus both be a single fearless teleporter who activates, makes an assault (infiltrator with a single sniper TK(1) CC attack for callidus, probably a straight 4 MW attacks for evesor) and then disappear again (either dying in the counterattack, and awarding their points to the enemy, or not, and awarding half of them)

callidus kills a single target, evesor beats up a formation and hopes to break it. vindicare does basically the same thing as a callidus but via shooting (so kills skimmers etc) and after their activation, they fade away

that being said, i can see why you'd leave them off the list, just not entirely why you'd leave them off the list when everything else in the codex is in there. if you dropped the henchmen entirely, and said "this is a pure GK army" then it'd be fine, but as it stands, it seems an ideal place for me to get my assassin fix >.>

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

The problem with making assassins individual formations/units (aside from also being an unfair boost to activations) is that they function as individuals attached to a detachment in the field, not really working in squads unless they are death cult. Also all of those rules are quite a bit fiddly and over-represent the power of an individual assassin in the field I think. Epic level infantry stands on the majority part represent the combined arms of five of a particular unit in their stats- the firefight ability of five individual henchmen warriors be they jokaero, heavy bolter servitors, psychics, warrior acolytes- may be equal to the weight of fire from a more measured single shot from a vindicare in killin' stuff- as is the armour value of killing an individual with good armour versus killing five henchmen with worse armour. That's why I feel that frogbears suggestion of adding them as ability upgrades to a base stand is pretty good.

Proposal 1?

Upgrade for Inquisitorial Henchmen formations

Assassins Add one or two assassin upgrades to Inquisitorial Henchmen units +25 points each

Assassin CHA --------------------- Scout, Sniper, Invulnerable Save

Gives the stand a profile of
INF Move 15cm Armour 6+ CC 5+ FF 5+ weapons 30cm AP5+/AT6+ Scout, Sniper, Invulnerable Save

You could model them as individuals on the stand if you wanted! or in with the other freaks

Where did scout come from? Why are we talking about a scout?

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(I mentioned it a few posts up) That brings them to similar stats as imperial guard snipers for the same cost (except they are upgrades to existing units, not additional units). There are no other scouts in the army! Scout benefits will be good for the unit, it can let the stand roam like a vindicare, etc etc

i agree that a vindicare should be its own unit not a squad worth of them, but they rarely stand next to the inquisitor whilst doing so.
a stand of death cultists would work well that way (althought i'd suggest "infiltrator, invulnerable, and a MW ccw" as the stat-combo) because they have a much more "bodyguard" vibe, but the temple assassins almost always worked removed from any inquisition forces in the area

but a temple assassin really should be a solo formation. if you use them for a single turn only, and make them cost (and worth) 100 points or more (the suggested callidus stats would be worth 100 i'm sure) they'd provide no more of an unfair activation advantage than a spaceship.


my proposed callidus would be:
INF Move 20cm Armour 5+ CC 2+ FF 4+
Invulnerable, Teleport, Assassin, Fearless, Infiltrator
Ctan Phase Sword: CCW, EA, TK(1) Sniper
Neural Shredder: Small Arms, Ignores Cover

the Assassin rule would be roughly as follows:
An Assassin is a highly trained killer and is not easily offput from its mission. When activating, or declaring an attack, an Assassin ignores blast markers. After a successful activation, the assassin fades away in the commotion. Remove the model from play. It does not count as destroyed for awarding victory points during the tiebreaker portion of scoring.

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~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~