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'Nid Thoughts

 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:56 am 
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After re-reading neals rules I realise that the loophole is actually clearly stated what should happen so no FAQ is needed atm - We'll just have to wait and see the in game impact

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A swarm must first spawn back units identical to those it has lost before it can spawn other types of units, e.g. a formation that has lost 3 Hormagaunts must first replace those 3 Hormagaunts before it can spawn Raveners. If that is impossible because there are no available units of the appropriate type in reserves, the swarm may spawn any available units. Formations which have not taken any casualties may spawn any available units. [Insert a note as to how using 'dead piles' will facilitate tracking formation-specific units.]


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 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:54 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
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A swarm must first spawn back units identical to those it has lost before it can spawn other types of units, e.g. a formation that has lost 3 Hormagaunts must first replace those 3 Hormagaunts before it can spawn Raveners. If that is impossible because there are no available units of the appropriate type in reserves, the swarm may spawn any available units. Formations which have not taken any casualties may spawn any available units. [Insert a note as to how using 'dead piles' will facilitate tracking formation-specific units.]

And at the end of the spawning rule section...
Quote:
Note that in the General Tournament scenario spawning does not change the Break Their Spirit goal, nor the method for determining half-strength formations when calculating tiebreaker points. Use the point values and unit counts of the swarms at the beginning of the game to determine each.


This still seems clunky, the first sentence is utilizing a "dead pile" without using that term. In effect it seems like we're throwing all of the dead brood into one big pool and trying to remember casualties from each formation. I think it would be clearer if we just introduced the idea of a dead pile for each formation at the start rather than leaving it for a note at the end.

How about something like this, immediately following the table on unit and their spawn point cost:

Quote:
Note that brood units returned to play must have belonged to the formation before it spawns, each formation's casualties should be kept separate for this reason. You cannot return brood units that belonged to another formation until all of the spawning formation's causalities are returned. Once this criteria has been met the formation may return brood units from another formation's casualties, these units become part of the spawning formation and are its casualties when they are destroyed.


On the Tie Breaker, I think the "dead piles" will help here too. If a formation's dead-pile is greater than what's left on the board then you know its below half strength. I think that's better than going by the number of units in a formation at the start of the game. If the number of units in a formation can fluctuate, then the tie-breaker limit should too. With the dead-piles we'll have an easy way to see that.

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Last edited by Dave on Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:18 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:01 pm 
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A further note on absorbing. If the above changes are implemented, we're effectively allowing absorbing through spawning. Jaldon, what is your argument for keeping a synapse-less formation from being absorbed by a synapse-lead formation with this type of spawning in effect?

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 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:18 pm 
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Dave wrote:
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Note that brood units returned to play must have belonged to the formation before it spawns, each formation's casualties should be kept separate for this reason. You cannot return brood units that belonged to another formation until all of the formation's causalities are returned. Once this criteria has been met the formation may return brood units from another formation's casualties, these units become part of the spawning formation.


Looks good to me.

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On the Tie Breaker, I think the "dead piles" will help here too. If a formation's dead-pile is greater than what's left on the board then you know its below half strength. I think that's better than going by the number of units in a formation at the start of the game. If the number of units in a formation can fluctuate, then the tie-breaker limit should too. With the dead-piles we'll have an easy way to see that.


Well, with the above rule the dead pile will fluctuate too, as units may move between them (a termagant is killed, spawned by another formation and is then killed again - it's now in the second unit's kill pile, no?)


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 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:22 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
Well, with the above rule the dead pile will fluctuate too, as units may move between them (a termagant is killed, spawned by another formation and is then killed again - it's now in the second unit's kill pile, no?)


It is (and I updated my suggestion to reflect that). But I believe that is what we want, I think. If a formation that starts at 10 units and grows to 16 by the end of the game it should have a half strength of 8, not 5, when calculating the tie breaker. Otherwise, cross-swarm spawning is open to tie-breaker abuse and that formation of 16 units need only have 5 units to be considered above half strength.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:31 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Ulrik wrote:
Well, with the above rule the dead pile will fluctuate too, as units may move between them (a termagant is killed, spawned by another formation and is then killed again - it's now in the second unit's kill pile, no?)


It is (and I updated my suggestion to reflect that). But I believe that is what we want, I think. If a formation that starts at 10 units and grows to 16 by the end of the game it should have a half strength of 8, not 5, when calculating the tie breaker. Otherwise, cross-swarm spawning is open to tie-breaker abuse and that formation of 16 units need only have 5 units to be considered above half strength.


I agree with that, just keep in mind that half strength will go down too - a formation is shot to bits, but the casualties absorbed by other swarms (not that unreasonable if the opponent focuses on it to try to eliminate the synapse). Maybe it started at 10 units and only have 3 gaunts left, but there's only 2 units in the dead pile so it counts as being above half strength...

It might not matter for swarms going instinctive as the Synapse creatures will be locked to that dead pile and won't be going anywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:04 pm 
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Are we counting instinctive swarms as completely destroyed for tiebreak? I forget. Is so, that will help but yes it will still be open to the abuse you suggest in the 4th turn either way. However, it will require a formation to be completely causality free to bump another above half strength by decreasing its dead-pile, how often does that occur in turn 4? Obviously playtesting would be in order.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:10 pm 
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you could also note that the minimum number for half strength is set by the list, this can then increase if the swarm grows.

That way your 4 (out of 10) strong swarm can't magically become over half strength because it only has 1 unit in it's dead pile due to spawning


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 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:31 pm 
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I like that, something like this:

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Spawning does not affect the Break Their Spirit victory condition in the Epic Tournament game rules. The formation worth the most points in a Tyranid army is determined when armies are picked.

In the event of a tiebreak a formation is considered to be half-strength or less if its casualties are greater than or equal to the number of units still in play. However, what is considered to be half-strength for a formation can never be reduced to less than what it was when armies were picked.


I don't think these should be in the spawning rule though. They are tournament game specific and should be in their own special rule in the tournament army list section.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:14 am 
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How about this wording

"For each swarm in the Tyranid Army the player must have a separate ‘spawning pool’, off table, designated for it. The player then places each destroyed Tyranid unit from a swarm in the proper spawning pool designated for that swarm.

A Swarm must first spawn back, into play, all the units in its spawning pool before it can spawn back units from a different swarm. If a swarm spawns back units from a different swarm those units become part of the new swarm and are no longer considered part of their original swarm.

Note: In the General Tournament Scenario this rule does not change how Break Their Spirit or Tie Breakers are carried out. Nor does it change the method for determining half strength formations per the Tie Breaker rules. Use the point values and the unit counts of the swarm at the beginning of the game to determine each formations value and size."

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 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:24 am 
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That's a lot more abusable than Neal's version; Neal's required that a formation must replace types if possible, whereas this version becomes free-for-all pretty much as soon as one formation nicks from another pool.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:26 am 
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I'd have "resurrection" spawning, or "free for all" spawning, not a strange half-way house which just ends up being far too complicated to be worth its while.

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 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:05 am 
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zombocom wrote:
That's a lot more abusable than Neal's version; Neal's required that a formation must replace types if possible, whereas this version becomes free-for-all pretty much as soon as one formation nicks from another pool.


It's easier book-keeping though. At least, I think it's easier to keep separate dead piles than to be constantly checking the army list.
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I'd have "resurrection" spawning, or "free for all" spawning, not a strange half-way house which just ends up being far too complicated to be worth its while.
I'd have "resurrection" spawning, or "free for all" spawning, not a strange half-way house which just ends up being far too complicated to be worth its while.


I think it's possible to come up with a reasonable compromise...both "resurrection" and "free-for-all" create their own issues where the simpler rules sometime lead to strange and "gamey" results.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:06 am 
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Ulrik wrote:
zombocom wrote:
That's a lot more abusable than Neal's version; Neal's required that a formation must replace types if possible, whereas this version becomes free-for-all pretty much as soon as one formation nicks from another pool.


It's easier book-keeping though. At least, I think it's easier to keep separate dead piles than to be constantly checking the army list.


In the games I've played with the list I haven't bothered with individual dead-piles, it was easy enough to remember what was in each swarm. Ditto my Necrons.

Neal's version really does fix a lot more problems; this version is basically just free-for-all.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Nid Thoughts
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:17 am 
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zombocom wrote:
ith the list I haven't bothered with individual dead-piles, it was easy enough to remember what was in each swarm. Ditto my Necrons.

Neal's version really does fix a lot more problems; this version is basically just free-for-all.


Thinking about it more, I think I agree. Neal's may be the best compromise between restrictions on spawning while not allowing spawning to be shut down by ignoring a formation.


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