I'm just surprised they didn't put that out as the original

I believe that one of its weapons is called a psilencer.
Sigh.

And now to really ruin it for anybody who liked this:

Seen something like this?



Now imagine...



(found the pic on another forum)

I really don't see the point of that. I can take any image and make it look like something totally different too. It's easy to exaggerate things to crack jokes but I don't think it's warranted here. Since the dread knight doesn't have a random head on top, the pilot harness really doesn't bear resemblance to the baby carrier. Put on the GKT's helmet and any resemblance is almost completely lost. While I'm not entirely fond of having the pilot strapped in and I think there are some issues with the mechanics of moving both sets of legs, it is a very nicely done model that takes it's aesthetic ques from imperial titans meshed with the dreadnought power packs and FW dread feet. Frankly the idea of strapping a terminator to the front makes decent sense with an exoskeleton that is supposed to match the wearers movements and fills a slot between a true knight titan and a dreadnought or sentinel. I probably would have capitalized on those aspects by adding the banding to the edges of the armor plates to further pull it in to the titan aesthetic.

After reading through the responses on Warseer, it seems to me that the DK is more victim of bandwagon hate rather than any serious design flaw. It's hard to take people seriously when they justifiably dislike a poorly designed model like the Storm Raven and then immediately turn around and rate something like the DK as making a Storm Raven look good and yet no one seems to have articulated any other reasons than "it doesn't look imperial", or "it doesn't have a ton of purity seals", or "if I add this, and tweak that, I can make it look like something completely different." or (my favorite) "they just ripped the matrix!". Even better was one comment that started in by saying the DK was ridiculous on multiple levels and then went on to only mention this was because it looked silly.

Go take a look at the 360 view GW put up, the DK is a good model that's well designed within the confines of the Marine and Titan aesthetic. Sure, with some exaggeration you can make fun of it, but list a GW model you can't.

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-Vaaish

Went to GWs site and had a look at the normal pictures again, and I agree that's it's well-crafted model. Hanging the pilot on the front chest is a bit stupid, but as he's wearing terminator armor it probably makes up for it.

But it still looks like it has a baby carrier. Sorry.

Seems to me that likes and dislikes are entirely subjective.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

People like to think that they are, but design has far less subjectivity when it comes down to it. Unless a group is uncharacteristically objective, a lot of likes and dislikes come from jumping on the band wagon of someone we see as authoritative.


I think that the most egregious flaw is writing "titan" over the cod piece.

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-Vaaish

If I recall correctly, the punch line is "Welcome to jamaica, mon, have a nice day"

Anyway, I still think the thing lacks the Imperial style. That's my biggest problem with it.

I disagree. I think it's definitely not within the confines of SM and Titan aesthetics.

Probably the single biggest issue for me in terms of violating the SM/Titan aesthetic is the scale and position of the arms and shoulders. The SM dread and the imperial titans have bulky torsos centered over relatively stocky legs. The shoulders tend to be forward and and solid and the arms short. That's the same aesthetic as SM Terminators and the old knights as well. Even plain old SM power armor tends to follow that hulking pose, with the exaggerated shoulder pads and backpack. It is iconic.

The dread knight torso is at odds with established style of the hulking posture. The shoulders are back and slender, with spidery hydraulics sticking out. The arms are long. The torso slopes backwards rather than being vertical or forward. From some angles the legs look stork-like. From some angles the torso looks off-center/unbalanced.

That's just not the same aesthetic.

======

If you want further specifics, there are also an assortment of other issues for me as well...

The aesthetics are internally inconsistent. Allegedly, it's supposed to fit somewhere between a Marine Dreadnought and an Imperial Titan, possibly with a bit of the Ecclesiastical walkers thrown in. It doesn't fit with any of them, and mashes up a bunch of incongruous styles.

Stylistically, the legs are sort of Tau/manga, which could be okay as it fits with the newer titans and has some elements in common with dread legs. However, the big shoulder joint hydraulics are steampunk. It's even more low-tech looking than the other steampunk-inspired pieces in the Imperial armory like the SM Thunderfire or the Penitent Engine. Same thing for the big vent pipes on the back of the ankles. It's almost Orky, and that just doesn't fit with the other high-tech elements.

The hands/weapons are wrong. No other imperial walker vehicle has the hand/weapon combo like that. For the Imperials, arms are weapons. There some models with auxiliary weapons on a powerfist/chainfist arm but that's not the same aesthetic as the big weapon with the hand underneath, manga/Tau style. Granted, the GK do use that style on their infantry, but it still seems wrong.

I personally don't care for the rider/walker combo and would rather the pilot was integrated into the vehicle. None of the SM vehicles or titans use exposed riders. It only has imperial precedent in the Ecclesiatical models (pentient engine and throne of judgment). More important than the rider/walker concept, though, is the execution. I think the codpiece looks like the pilot is wearing diaper (which makes the whole baby snuggy photoshop rather amusing to me). Someone else pointed out that the rider ought to at least have Terminator-level armor, since they are piloting something far more valuable than Termie armor.

Of course, all that means it's technologically inconsistent in addition to the stylistic juxtaposition. The legs can fit all the mechanics in and sheath them in sleek armor, but the arm hydraulics are bulky and exposed. The legs need some sort of oversized venting pipes, but the main engine has comparatively sleek exhaust similar to the dreadnought. It has overlapping armor plates on some joints to completely cover them, but leaves others entirely exposed without any apparent rhyme or reason.

I agree that there is a lot of bandwagoning, however, I think that this is a significant and justifiable reason not to like it. GW have created something somewhat new in terms of design/aesthetics (which is, in theory, good) but it does not work. Aside from the dread power-plant I don't think the back does match imperial design. Those toes are Tau Battlesuit. There may be details you can point out objectively, but this does not matter if when it comes together my overall impression of the construct as a whole is 'non-imperial anime robot'.

Subjectivity is subjective. People are not always able to articulate their reason for like or dislike even if they have deeper objective grounding. A design can evoke subjective feelings and emotions from objective attributes. If someone thinks that something 'isn't quite right' design wise but cannot say why, this is still valid (or can be, assuming it is not just bandwagoning), annoying, but valid. It is the designer's job to work out why it creates this reaction, not the customers. The bandwagoning can work both ways, if a mass approves of a design simply 'because it's cool' this can be enough even if there are objective flaws (eg it is impossible for xyz to physically happen).

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AFK with real life, still checking PMs

I think that it is quite within those confines. If you compare the joints an structure of the DK with both a sentinel and the Warhound titan, it has much the same feel behind the armor using the oversized circles at the hip and knee joints. In the case of the warhound, the close fitting armor plates falls in line with the mars pattern titan aesthetic with placement and style minus the raised edges. A look at the back of the torso is very consistent with the styling of the marine dreadnought as well and the feet have much in common with the FW mk4 dreads, in particular the new Ironclad or even the warhound titan. Placement of the pilot lower on the model brings back the hulking appearance that imperial titans tend to have by visually placing the "head" below the arms. As for the hands, I think that this is in keeping with the styling of the new Venerable dreadnoughts that have moved towards more anthropomorphic "hands" rather than gripper claws. Having those hands hold a weapon is a logical progression and it's long been standard to mount a weapon on the wrist of a dreadnoughts power claws. So, while a majority of imperial equipment does function with the arms as weapons, this direction isn't unprecedented or completely off base since the standard loadout is just the power fists.

I can see how that having the mechanical bits for the arms visible is a little off putting stylistically, and I've tried replacing the arm structure with something more in line with the legs. I think that despite the logic gap with why the mechanics couldn't just be in the arm, it actually helps the visual interest of the model and does make it seem a little less high tech. regardless of position, they do fit stylistically with the other mechanical bits on the model. Those protrusions on the legs are somewhat of a puzzle to me as well. I don't think they are exhaust vents because there's also a set on the hips that don't really have anything near that would require exhaust that I can see. My initial thought was that they might somehow represent the teleporter "sticks" since there are four of them and four on the teleporter backpacks for the PAGK and both are something of the same aesthetic. What they are not withstanding, they seem to only exist to counter-balance the slight bend in the legs and visually prevent the model from appearing top heavy.



I agree that looks odd in the front on photos on the product page, but from the 360 rotating view of the model it seems that the entire top half of the model is leaning backwards almost like the DK is getting pushed over. The end result is the shoulders are appearing further back on the model than they actually are. The longer arms aren't problematic because of the reaver CC arm which is much closer in proportions to this one. That puts it more on the titan aesthetic than with the dreadnought style arms.


I'm not sure the point you are making here, the pilot IS wearing terminator armor. It's pretty plain from the sprues and the painted model's legs and arms that he's got terminator armor on. On the codpiece though, I think they would have been better served by making more of the armored tabord style bit there from the old Paladins.

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-Vaaish

I would agree that, as a designer, it is our job to figure out why a client doesn't find something quite right but I think an important part of working out the reasons is effectively communicating with the client to help them articulate why they are getting that feeling. It becomes incredibly frustrating for both parties if that nebulous feeling isn't solidified or narrowed down into something actionable as the designer ends up shooting blind or making changes to satisfy the whim of the client rather than working together to craft the message the client needs communicated. Of course, sometimes it really is just that the client is looking for a computer interface to turn their sketch into a vector image and when that happens you end up with the choice to make a bit of cash and do what they want or walk away. By way of example, I had to fire a client once because what he wanted me to do wasn't to a professional level I could put my name behind as designer. He didn't even want to talk about other options or how he wanted his company to be represented or provide anything but cursory information about his brand. Later, I found out he did the project himself.

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-Vaaish

well, as a non-AR non-40k non-historian, I think it looks odd because there are no obvious visual cues (apart from the Nemesis doom fist hammer of doom) that tie it into the 40k universe, but instead make it look like something from Aliens/Matrix (v. definitely)/ Avatar. Given the effort that GW usually makes to keep it's models consistent with the 40k universe and each other (SM = Gothic Knights for example), this complete departure is jarring. You can reduce design elements as far as you wish (this part of a toe looks like a FW Manta, this eyebrow looks like a SM Chaplain from 1991 etc) but as a whole, which should be how a model is judged, it falls flat in the 40k universe.

However, I'm a sucker for walking robot dudes with big hammers, so I think it's kinda cool, just not as a 40k universe model.

Different strokes. You said no one was giving any specifics about why it's "not imperial" so I did. If you still disagree, it's just a difference of opinion about what defines something as "imperial," rather than that no one presented a coherent explanation.


You're right. My bad.

People will get used to it pretty quickly.