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Nid Combined Special Rules

 Post subject: Re: Nid Combined Special Rules
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:20 pm 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Emergence is by definition not intelligent or directed. Intelligence is in fact a an emergent behavior itself, and emergent behaviors can have apparent direction, but neither is compatible with true emergence. That is what makes emergence so fascinating. It needs no intelligence or direction to have complex and unpredictable results.


Emergence is one of my favourite topics, along with Complexity. I'm aware it's not intelligent or directed, yet leads to intelligent and directed results. Our minds are an emergent result of millions of neurons following a simple pattern, but intelligent and seemingly directed plans emerge from it.

Spectrar Ghost wrote:
In "reality", the 'nids probably need no directing intelligence, but then what would be the point of the player?


I've always found the Tyranid "Hive Mind" much less interesting than true hive minds like termite mounds. I guess GW decided people were too stupid to understand the real concept so turned it into psychic remote control instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Nid Combined Special Rules
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:26 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
Ok, a quick reassessment of issues that I'd like a response from Jaldon on:

Expendable

Should probably apply to gargoyles too. Also, can we use the standardised NetEA Expendable wording as used in other lists?

Wasn't the addition of the 1/2 Gaunt rule for combat resolution included because Expendable was too over the top for Tyranids in Engagements?

Or do you just mean use the same wording template, with the appropriate changes?

Morgan Vening


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 Post subject: Re: Nid Combined Special Rules
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:30 pm 
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Morgan Vening wrote:
zombocom wrote:
Ok, a quick reassessment of issues that I'd like a response from Jaldon on:

Expendable

Should probably apply to gargoyles too. Also, can we use the standardised NetEA Expendable wording as used in other lists?

Wasn't the addition of the 1/2 Gaunt rule for combat resolution included because Expendable was too over the top for Tyranids in Engagements?

Or do you just mean use the same wording template, with the appropriate changes?

Morgan Vening


Expendable isn't the same as the grot rule, deaths in engagements count as normal, but kills from shooting etc don't give BMs.

Expendable is a new rule used by quite a few lists, and really should be standardised. The version in Onachus is pretty standard:

EXPENDABLE
A formation does not receive a Blast marker when an expendable unit is destroyed, this includes the extra Blast marker from the first casualty of a crossfire and for units destroyed for being out of formation after a move. If an expendable unit is hit by a weapon with the disrupt ability it does not inflict a Blast marker.

A formation that is comprised completely of expendable units does not benefit from any of these advantages.
Expendable units killed in an assault count for the purposes of working out its result (see EA 1.12.7).


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 Post subject: Re: Nid Combined Special Rules
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:40 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
Ginger wrote:
I understand that, but struggle on several points:-

We seem to be placing several abilities into one bug, when I thought we are trying to model each bug only having a single specialisation. At the very least we ought to divorce the bug representing the Hive Mind 'link' from the one that represents 'Spawning'. Furthermore, there ought to be similar representations in 'independent' swarms; they also ought to have a Hive Mind 'link' capability. The only real difference is the numbers represented on the table - the lack of spawning means they are much better understood by the opponent (for whatever reason)


Those are interesting ideas, but have little to do with the Tyranid background. Synapse and Spawning ARE two sides of the same thing for nids; spawning mostly represents errant nids coming under the synapse umbrella. In some cases it's even more literal than that; both the Dominatrix and Tervigon literally give birth to new nids and have a Hive Mind link.

Equally, GW background says that most "independant" formations don't have a link to the Hive Mind, they either have a brood telepathy (genestealers) or sophisticated instincts and intelligence (lictors), which allow them to act effectively outside synapse control. They are NOT directly controlled by the Hive Mind, instead working more like a real-life termite-style hive-mind, where the indepentant instinctive acts of creatures cause emergent directed intelligent effects without need for a psychic controlling intelligence.

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So the question then becomes one of how to represent the situation where things should "degrade quickly when the enemy is dictating events". To me, that is really whether the enemy has mustered enough firepower or bodies to 'Break' a swarm - not having to do it repeatedly


That situation is represented by killing the synapses, and watching the nids fail to activate from then on, and fail to rally.

Like I said, Having Nid formations zooming all over the place seems a bit odd personally, as does killing a 'mind link' bug to break the spell over the swarm.

I love the bit about "the indepentant instinctive acts of creatures cause emergent directed intelligent effects without need for a psychic controlling intelligence"; it really describes the roles of the player perfectly (GW notwithstanding). So my question is why can't we dispense with mimicing the Hive Mind altogether? It would simplify things further, and still produces the desired effects.


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 Post subject: Re: Nid Combined Special Rules
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:51 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
Like I said, Having Nid formations zooming all over the place seems a bit odd personally, as does killing a 'mind link' bug to break the spell over the swarm.


Like it or not, that's what the GW background for Tyranids is. They're really not that much like Earth insects.

Ginger wrote:
I love the bit about "the indepentant instinctive acts of creatures cause emergent directed intelligent effects without need for a psychic controlling intelligence"; it really describes the roles of the player perfectly (GW notwithstanding). So my question is why can't we dispense with mimicing the Hive Mind altogether? It would simplify things further, and still produces the desired effects.


Because you lose a lot of the 'niddy flavour. My quote there is what a real-life hive mind is, not what the Tyranids have.

As far as GW is concerned, the player is the Hive Mind, and has perfect control of everything near a synapse creature, but those further away revert to their own instincts.


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 Post subject: Re: Nid Combined Special Rules
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:08 pm 
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jaldon454 wrote:
1+ Initiative: Ignoring my abysmal rolls for the Dactylis and Carnifexes, I pretty much had little trouble activating or rallying my formations. The Dactylis had been hit in turn one by the IG Arty and never could rid themselves of the ONE stinking BM they had on themselves, and the Carnifexes failed a critical activation roll due to BMs. In all other cases activations rolls were made.

That's not abysmal. Out of 35-40 activations/rallies (7 swarms x 2 initiative/turn x 3 turns = 42, minus a few rolls for broken formations), you failed 3-4. That's ~1/10. By the time you figure in retained activations and an opponent who is actively trying to curtail your checks by strategic BM placement, staying within 30cm in the end phase and so on, that's not especially far below normal. I don't think you can dismiss it as especially bad luck.

The fact that the rolls happened is indicative of a shift in the list. That you felt the results were "abysmal" in play is telling in terms of the flavor and feel created by that shift. Your perception was negative because you were prevented from doing something you felt the army should have been able to accomplish.

A lot more games are needed to see if that is a common experience, but I think this keeps previously expressed concerns about Nid command and control under consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Nid Combined Special Rules
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:13 am 
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A quick reply then later I'll get into the bigger questions asked.

Neal my rolls for the Dactylis were abysmal, they didn't activate once because I kept rolling ones, but it was good for laughs around the table, too bad I wasn't playing Yahtzee. This would include the end turn rallies :D At one point I looked the dice over that I had rolled to see if it had any other numbers besides one on it :o

The Carnifex roll just hit at a real bad time for the Nids as I was about to bust the Imperial center, with the Carns leading the attack into a Leman Russ Company. Their failure to attack forced a Swarm and the Hireodule to bust the tanks when they were supposed to be doing something else to expand the breach.

More Later Cheers All,
Jaldon

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