Thanks, Jstr.


Fair enough (and the defensive force = Codex note as well).


I disagree on the fluff. Speeders dropping from high atmo is in there. Jervis at one point noted that he had intended to work it in in some way.

Stylistically, I like the fact that it turns a scout unit into a main-line "assault" unit. That seems like an appropriately "lightning strike" sort of tactic to me.

I'm willing to ditch the Planetfall speeders if necessary. I'm just not there yet.


Has it been especially powerful, or is the problem more a sense of unfairness due to "gotcha" factor?

I chose the Planetfall mechanic over Teleport like the Eldar Swooping Hawks to represent a similar ability, as it makes it less precise because I thought precision would make it too powerful. Dave's previous tests seemed to indicate it was a little too much, so I put a point cost on the deployment option.


I was already going with the "30cm minimum move" idea like the White Scars, so this might work. My concern is that it hinders the idea of commandos sneaking up on foot.


The unit is supposed to represent assault marines without jump packs so they can use alternate forms of transport, mostly drop pods. Making them Scout would be a very different kind of formation. That idea fits as well, but it shifts focus away from planetfall by removing an option.

What is the benefit of making them unable to use normal transport available to all power armor marines? Is the intent to focus them in some way?


The upgrades are intended primarily to support their use as drop troops (all can be used with Planetfall formations), and secondarily as a skimmer-mounted ground formation. Can I assume this is also related to shifting the focus of the formation (/list)? What upgrades would you prefer to cut?


Agreed. Count on them being 50 points each.


Can you expand on this? The Tempest trades Scout ability and some AP firepower for a token 30cm AA6+ shot and AT fire. That makes the Tempest more flexible overall, I suppose, but at the cost of Scout. I understand that having 1 in a formation for the token AA is pretty much a no-brainer, but I don't understand the assertion that it's much better overall.


This, with the RG Assault comments above, gave me an idea about a different approach to scout units in the list. What would you think about 2 formations with delineated roles - a scout-sniper formation similar to the Codex list and an "assault scout" formation of some kind (maybe more like the Space Wolves Scout units)?


I understand this. I limited them to 30cm move AVs so they only had blitz style armor. I'm open to further curtailment.

However, one of the reasons I did not add Preds as an infantry upgrade was to focus on skimmers as the primary close support. If the armor is cut, I think it has to be gone completely.


The Thawk variants are possible, but the intent is to focus on planetfall and guerrilla operations. I'm afraid introducing the Thawk variants would push them back towards air assault.


My main concern with the changes you suggest is avoiding overlap with the Blood Angels. I'm afraid that if I implemented the majority of the suggestions, RG would be a BA clone - infantry-focused lists, attached armor instead of a dedicated formations, assault marines as the primary fast attack option, a different "alternate Scout" formation (BA Bike scouts v RG assault scouts or whatever), and Caestus/Stormraven with essentially identical battlefield roles. That's BA in everything but Red Thirst.

The list is going to have elements of BA, Codex and White Scars (in terms of "lighting strike" play style more than units/force org). The trick is going to be staying away from all 3 enough that the scout/skimmer/planetfall aspects of the list shine rather than being "Army X + skimmers" or "Army Y + scouts".

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It was marines in power armor, operating as infiltration/scout units (4+ armor, 4+CC, 4+FF, Heavy Bolter, Scout). However, I took them out at some point because the focus shifted. It could be back on the table.

Thanks for the reply neal.
Transport rule: Forgot to include scouts in that rule. I would also like scouting forces to be exempt.

Speeders: The fluff supports them being dropped by Thunderhawk not from a spaceship. That's what the deep strike ability in 40k is about. The objections about planetfall are primarily about forcing your opponent to spend usually about 2 turns fighting skimming scouts in their deployment zone making it very difficult to get achieve VP's. The ability to drop them individually combined with the ability to reroll the scatter make it easier to fence off your opponent's deployment zone.

Assault: We wanted to turn this into an assault scout unit. There is currently no fluff allowing Assault marines to ditch their jump packs however every tac. squad has the ability to take bolt pistols and CC weapons instead of bolters. R.Guard specific because they don't have as many suits of terminator armour as other chapters they do have veteran squads armed as Assault marines. We wanted to use this to make the list feel more like R.Guard. Allowing them to scout seemed a good way of doing this. The removal of the transport rule was to bring them into line with the Scouts who have also lost it an also to reflect the fact that when they have been mentioned on the offensive in the fluff the R.Guard have not been using Rhino's as transports. They tend to use skimmers and TH's instead. We would still allow the to use drop pods.

Typhoon: As a upgrade we believe they are clearly inferior to Tempests. Tempests have better shooting and an AA shot. The scout rule is immaterial as the rest of the formation has it allowing them to scout.

Scouts: I would prefer a power armoured scout option which is why I suggested adding scout to the R.Guard Assault. I didn't really like the old Heavy scouts and would rather them have a CC preference. However I do like the idea of adding sniper to scouts as standard for 200 points for 4 units.

Planefall: We feel the list is a bit too focused on this. The R.Guard and their successors are supposed to have more drop pods and TH's than most other chapters. But drop podding is not really the defining characteristic of their strategy. The R.Guard are known for scouts and skimmers and for long running Guerrilla campaigns which are difficult to represent in epic. However in the fluff they use more TH's than drop pods. In the codex Shrikes company is almost entirely transported by TH's. In the Raid on Kastorel Novem only a small number of raiders use drop pods the majority are deployed by 7 TH's.

Overall feel: What you described as what you wanted to avoid i.e an infantry heavy force (primarily scouts with a slight bias towards Assault marines over tacticals) with limited attached armour is essentially what the R.Guard are in the fluff. Scouts, Land Speeders and TH's really define the chapter and should be the focus of the list. The chapter as a whole has a bit of a CC bias and uses armour differently from other chapters. We feel the list should be more focused on scouts and skimmers with planetfall a very good option rather than the list be primarily a planetfall list with attached skimmers and scouts.

I'll be getting in another game with the list this week anything in particular you want to see tested? I'm sure I can talk E&C into a proper battle report if you'd like to see the impact of any changes.

Good thoughts.

Assault/RG Assault - I realize the mechanic in 40K is Tacs taking assault weapons rather than Assault Marins dropping the packs. I was just being sloppy because the end result is the same - assault marine weaponry w/o packs.

Assault Scouts - Are you thinking Assault Marine stats, Scout, no packs? How would those be used? I'm thinking they'd have to have transport or planetfall to be effective. I'm a bit concerned about Planetfalling infantry scouts with Deathwinds. It would have effects similar to those you described with Speeders, but with Deathwind attacks as well. The restriction would be the loss of capacity (all infantry slots).

The other issue is it turns them from just Tacs w/ assault weapons to elite units, and there is still no simple, relatively inexpensive drop pod assault force. I'm not sure what to think about that.

Typhoon - Gotcha. Any suggestions? Just a point bump (+35 to upgrade speeders, +150 for an attached pair)?

Thawks - I completely understand this. Another example is the Baran war stuff from Swordwind where the RG were running around keeping tabs on everything from Thawks. The problem is that it's such a huge part of so many SM lists. Codex tends to be Thawk-heavy. Templars became a de facto air assault specialty army. Scions feature Thawk Transports and fire support patterns. White Scars can run 8-unit bike Thawks. RG with them is just same ol'-same ol'.

Of course, it would be of tremendous help of it was remotely worth it to Planetfall Thawks. But as we all know, coming on as aircraft is just plain better due to the mechanics.

Overall Feel - The problem is that there is so much overlap with just about everyone. Infantry heavy, CC/assault marines, attached armor is Blood Angels w/o Red Thirst. Zippy, lightning strike is White Scars (trade out an 8-unit assault marine formation for WS Bikes and you'd have a passable proxy RG list). So, even though those are legitimately in keeping with the RG fluff, there's no need for an Epic army list. The list has to focus on other characteristics if it is to have any viability.

The idea was to use the 3 features that don't crossover - planetfall, scouts and skimmers - with viable army lists being able to be built around any combination of them. It should also have the ability to do the semi-BA and semi-WS styles as well as a side effect.

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I'm now thinking we rip it down to a very tight focus and if we need to broaden it back out to be viable, we can do that later.

No bikes. No Preds. No Whirlwinds. No Rhinos. No Razorbacks. Maybe some sort of drop-pod-only option for taking Dreadnoughts, but otherwise no Dreads (that transport rule idea is looking good). All transport and fire support has to be skimmers.

Split Scout formations into Sniper-Scout and Assault-Scout versions.

Would a formation of Caestus be useful as a kind of assault-armor formation? They'd be tougher and have more firepower than normal Speeders, but otherwise fulfill a similar role. They could planetfall, filling a similar role to Speeders currently without the Scout issues or any dispute over the fluff. Mechanically, that sounds like it works, but I don't know about the flavor of using them in that fashion.

Raven Guard got an Apocalypse Datasheet:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... Talons.pdf

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Assault scouts: I would give them Assault marine stats with scout no jump pack, They would be used in much the same way as the R.Guard Assault now just feel more Raven Guardy (again I assure you this is a word) because they can scout. Think of them like commandos or operative infiltrating onto a planet with scouts to sabotage conduct hit and run attacks. The idea with the dropping transports was to force people to take Caestusi to transport them or using drop pods. The issue with scout ZOC and planetfall is only really an issue when you have 4 or more formations I would put them in formations of 6 units like the current R.Guard Assault.

Typhoon: I reckon a points change either to the tempest or typhoon will fix the issue.

TH: I'm not really pushing for the R.Guard to become an air assault army. I floated the idea for the TH variants because with no preds. the Warhound is the only real shooting option.

Overall feel: I'm happy so long as land speeders and scouts are the real focus of the list. I actually really like the reroll planetfall scatter rule as it is one of the only ways to represent the R.Guard's strategic use of scouts prior to the engagement. I feel if we make them into the skimmer/scout chapter there is enough room for them to feel unique. Think about the Raven Guard as a WW2 airbourne force ie. infantry heavy little to no heavy equipment. As opposed to White Scars cavalry and Blood Angels frenzied CC specialists.

Not sure about the Caestus formation stats don't really seem to work as stand alone formation. Willing to test it though.

One final point. E&C and I have been discussing the idea of including mutants in the list. During the heresy they used radical gene harvesting techniques to replenish numbers and this created mutants which the Raven Guard herded into battle. They aren't really in the fluff as part of the modern chapter but it could be fun. It could be a throw back like the Wulfen in the Space Puppies.

Ravenguard Tactical Assault??

Played another games vs E&C's Orks.

Variants used: Tempests 35 points as upgrade.
Caestus 50 points each.
R.Guard Assault add Scout 250 points.

List used:

Tactical Marines + SC + Hunter 475.
R.Guard Assault Scouts + Caestus + Chaplain 450.
Terminators + Chaplain 400.
Assault Marines + Chaplain 225.
Landing Craft 350 (Carrying Terminators and Assault Marines).
Sniper Scouts 200.
Land Speeders (Multi-Melta) + Tempest 235.
Land Speeders (Multi-Melta) + Tempest 235.
Warhound 275.
Thunderbolts 150.
2995 points.

E&C I'm sure will post his list later. The game ended 2-0 to the R.Guard. Overall the list felt and acted differently from codex marines. Nothing stood out as OTT or overpowered. There were no major issues that arose from allowing the Caestus to benefit from scout but this still requires more testing. The only potential issue we identified was that Caestusi are almost always best used as transports for the Assault Scouts we struggled to see any other real role for them. Overall all I was quite pleased by the Raven Guardy (still a word) feel to the list which forces the player to focus on skimmers and scouts and forces a very Raven Guardy play style.

E&C will be along later to post his thoughts.

My single thought so far is that the list feels like it's on track. Very skimmy/scouty, felt noticably different to play against to standard Codex Space Marines.

Pictures from the game here:
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=20315

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I've been thinking about it more. If you want to allow Speeders to have a planetfall like ability teleport is a better mechanic. It doesn't have the same issues that allowing them to planetfall has (i.e dropping individually and rerolling scatter) as if I remember correctly all subsequent teleports have to be placed within 5cm of the first unit. The upgrade cost may have to go up as you don't need a spaceship (perhaps 50-75 points per formation?). It would also be worth considering allowing scouts to take the upgrade.

It is also worth mentioning that I feel the upgrades for the scout formation (with the exception of sniper) are too expensive. The extra scouts should perhaps be 50 points and the LS Storm's should be about 50-75 points for 4 and 75-100 points for 6 IMHO. The list should encourage players to take large outfitted scout formations.

Played another test game against E&C's guard on Monday. Again the list felt about right with the units and restrictions. The game went 2-0 to the guard. I made an error in pacing the objectives, they were too close together and allowed the guard to concentrate and castle. Even though E&C offered to allow me to replace them we continued on as I wanted to see how the list would do in those circumstances. It didn't do too badly and the game was closer than we expected in the end. A bit of bad luck and comparative sparseness of the terrain hurt me a little.

Overall I think the changes we suggested are about right for the R.Guard. The only issue the list has is the lack of shooting. The Warhound is the only option. I have been thinking about suggesting that Storm Ravens be allowed in the list or splitting the Land Speeder formation into a Multi-melta formation and a Typhoon formation. Storm Ravens are my preferred option. I'm not sure I agree with E&C that they do the same job as Caestusi. I tend to see Storm Ravens more as a Gunship option whereas the Caestus is more of a transport/Support vehicle. I would not allow Storm Ravens to be used as a transport upgrade but a formation of 4 for 300 points could be interesting.

Didn't we also agree that the upgrade cost for adding Cestusi to Terminators should come down from 100pts to 50pts, as they're not really worth the loss of Teleport / Thunderhawking / Drop Podding?

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Presumably this was assault marine stats, 15cm move, Scout, as discussed above? What pricing did you use?


I'm concerned about the idea of Caestus as Scout transport as opposed to a shock-troop style transport. That's diverging from the background quite a bit. The original Storm Eagle concept the Caestus replaced was intended more as a dual-purpose vehicle, but that seems to have disappeared as a design concept.

As far as functionality, they can allow a planetfall formation to have transport, which can be of substantial benefit. Terminators planetfalling, with a 40cm CC/50cm FF assault range is very flexible as far as choice of assault targets, not to mention the utility of the speed for late-game objective grabs. They were also very useful for the RG assault formations for the same reasons. Plus, they give ranged fire for placing BMs when the formation would not otherwise have it.


Teleport has its own set of problems. It's a lot more precise and can react to where the enemy is at that point. In some ways it makes it even easier to play games with the Scout ZoC.

The restriction on teleport is not "within 5cm of the first unit," but within 5cm of any unit, i.e. normal formation coherency rather than scout coherency. That can still allow a long line to fence in the enemy - 20cm line/40cm ZoC.

The restriction on Planetfall is within 15cm of the landing point. If you get a good plot, that's more useful because the units can spread out farther, but that's a maximum frontage of 30cm line/50cm ZoC ONLY if you can make use of the full diameter of the LZ circle. In practice it should be less than that.

It might be worth a try, but I think Teleport is stronger and potentially more "gamey."


Definitely. I don't think it would be more than 50 points, though. It's +25 for planetfall at the moment. Teleport is better, so it should probably be more. You don't have to buy a spacecraft to use Teleport but, let's face it, SM spacecraft are the best in the game and definitely worth their points. I don't think the "don't have to buy spacecraft" is worth much of a premium.


Possibly.


I have a hard time believing the Storms are overpriced. They are as good as a Razorback (LV, better armor, better move) and Razorbacks are the single best points-for-value unit in any SM list. Storms are effectively cheaper than Razorbacks as well because they don't have the hidden "+5 points" premium for removing Rhinos. Storms don't have the AT option of a Razorback, but they match the AP firepower and range of the Scouts, giving them good synergy. I don't want to make any change to their price without a lot of playtest evidence.

The cost of other upgrades will need to be revisited with the possibility of a new formation. We were discussing Scouts are going to be all-Sniper, so upgrade costs will need to assume that. Under the current list, 4 Scouts + Sniper is 200 points. We might give them -25 points for losing "plus transport" versus Codex formations, but the Sniper ability is being discounted so I'm not sure. Either way, we're looking at 175-200 points for 4 Scouts. +75 for 2 more would be a discount from the per-unit price.

We can also look at revising the stats to reflect sniper abilities better, e.g. giving them CC5+/FF4+ to represent their heavier reliance on firepower over commando-style close combat gear.

And while we are in that vein... I'm still disturbed by the Caestus-scout-transport idea. It's tempting to have the RG Assault as they were (just Tacs w/ assault weapons) and have a separate, scout-based assault troop that could ride in Storms instead of Caestus as a lighter commando assault force (also a good candidate for the Teleport-as-infiltration/surprise mechanic).


Heh. That happens when you take out all the armor. I'd suggest formations of Typhoons/Tempests. I've found Typhoons to be worth their points as fire support. It's still light on AT, though.


Always a problem.

R.Guard Assault: Yes the stats discussed above were used for 250 points for 6. Essentially taking the R.Guard Assault and adding scout. There is fluff about the R.Guard insert power armoured marines (tac and assault marines) ahead of the main force to act as saboteurs etc. As far as the Caestus goes E&C and I have found no major problems using it as a transport for the Assault scouts. I can fully understand and appreciate your fluff concerns but how we have been utilizing them makes the formation feel very Raven Guardy.

Scouts: I'd be willing to test any stat changes you want to suggest for these. As far as storms go I'm not saying that they are over priced for their stats I'm saying that the cost of them essentially prohibits their use. A formation of scouts transported in Storms would cost either 300 or 475 points that's a hefty chunk of points. It's 50 points more than a formation of R.Guard Assault with 3 Caestusi and a chaplain.

Assault Scouts: I'm not sure I like the idea of them riding in Storms. Storms are more of a lightly armed reconnaissance vehicle rather than an assault vehicle like the Caestus. On the other hand if you give them infiltrate they don't really need transports. What stats are you thinking about for this unit? I have concerns about the viability of a CC engagement formation with scout armour.

Terminators: We tried the formation with 2 Caestusi in our last game. On reflection I still prefer having them in a landing craft. I'm not sure I would put Caestusi with them again.

As for the other suggestions about shooting options, alternative planetfall options and the like I am actually happy with the list as it stands and offered those suggestions for your consideration as alternatives to keep some of what you originally had in the list if you so chose. I'm willing to test whatever you decide on.

I expect that most of the time the sniper-scout formation will be kitted out as one or the other - mech or reinforced - rather than both. I'm okay with that. It would be great to have big, fully kitted scout formations, but I don't think turning them into a line formation is possible.

A dedicated AP/sniper/Scout formation is a specialty formation and 12 AP (6 sniper) is overkill for that specialty situation most of the time. It would take a substantial discount to turn a formation with that many special abilities into a line formation, which would throw off point costs for non-line applications.

Preliminary testing of LS Storms as Scouts showed that large formations of TSKNF Scouts were problematic due to synergistic effects. While a double upgrade isn't all Scouts, it's 12 units/6 scout, so it can do a lot of the same tricks. I'm not convinced it should be discounted even if it could be done without throwing off the other point costs.

In terms of the Land Speeder in the list, how do they fight in the RG list? Do they need to have the scout ability(particulalrly the tempest/typhoon etc)? I kind of get the feeling that they might perhaps also be used more in a straight-up fighting formation role rather than a hard scout role.