I dropped 20 Speeders and rolled scatter for each of them (some with reroll) in our playtests, it wasn't that bad time-wise. You're not setting them up on the board before the game and if they're planetfalling after turn 1 there's all that time you saved by not moving them those turns.

The problem with scattering one and then placing the others is you can do a lot of nasty things with their Scouts ability.

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Squats 2019-10-17

Not if you specify you have to delpoy the rest within 15cm of the first one.

Also did you plot 20 seperate drop zones? Or one for each formation and scattered each unit off that?

One DZ per formation. Each unit has to be placed within 15cm of the designated point, then scattered - place/scatter/place/scatter/etc. until you get to the end of the formation.

That's 4 DZs and 20 scatter rolls in Dave's example (4 formations of 5 Speeders each).


That would allow a 30cm "chain" from the originally plotted DZ - place the first unit at 15cm and then the others can be up to 15cm from the first. Keep in mind the RG get to reroll scatter, too, so that allows for a lot more precise placement. That combination of effects would be a lot more flexible and allow for some seriously "gamey" play using the Speeder ZoCs.

If all the scatter dice prove to be a problem, then not scattering, but staying in the original DZ would be less subject to manipulation. I'm okay with that, but I want to see some game results before I go writing an exception to the core rules.

Even then you're looking at 50cm of ZoC that the attacker can place pretty much how they want.

Nope, one drop zone per unit, move a unit 15cm and then scatter it. It goes pretty quick when you've got the point picked out and the units and scatter dice right in front of you.

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Squats 2019-10-17

About numer of version, this list (the nealhunt's Raven Guard v1.1) is supposed to be the most up to date, isn't it ?
But in the last Space Marines Draft lists, the Raven Guard list (which is supposed to be lead by the sub-army champion "Nealhunt") is the v1.4.

So either Chroma made an error in numbering the version in the SM draft, or nealhunt, you lost the count somewhere.
So, tio make it clearer, you should renumber this v1.1 list into a number posterior to the v1.4 in the SM draft : v1.4.1+, v1.5+, or v2+ ...

Yes. This 1.1. is the most up to date.

I typically number my early, working drafts where I'm still wrangling basic concepts as "0.x". Chroma didn't like that when he was putting together the army list docs because it implies a pre-publication status, so he bumped it to 1.x.

In any case, the draft SM compendium draft is just that - draft. I'm sure Chroma will make sure the numbers line up in the next iteration.

Might get chance to playtest this over the weekend at NEAT. A couple of quick questions:

1) Was it intentional to disallow Rhinos in Scout formations?
2) Land Speeder formations may buy the Planetfall upgrade for 25 points, Land Speeder upgrades already come with Planetfall, as per your answer a few posts back?

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Squats 2019-10-17

Yes, and yes.

Looks like the scouts a hoofing it then.

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Squats 2019-10-17

After discussing the Stormraven with E&C in the Blood Angel threads, I'm re-evaluating the Caestus because the units have similar roles (Skimmer transport w/ Planetfall and ranged fire).

My main price comparison was LRs at 85 points, which put the Caestus in the high 50s range. At 75 point LRs, the Caestus stats would come in right at 50. They do replace transport options (Rhinos or Deathwind attacks), which is the theoretical justification for LRs being 75 points. 50 points doesn't run up the cost of the formation quite as much. It's also simple for pricing structure.

At 5+RA they are not the liability that Rhinos are and fit more of the role of Chimeras with IG mech infantry. They are at least a little bit tougher than the troops, which will make them more likely to stay mobile than with Rhinos.

They can also be a sort of Rhino option for Terminators - lower armor than the troops so they can easily turn into a one-way trip when they die before the infantry. However, they are substantially cheaper than LR transport due to the need to only buy 2 Caestus - 450 for Termies + 2 Caestus, giving them a 35cm on-ground move to start the game.


So... any thoughts? Objections to 50 points?

A counter-proposal: bump them to FF 4+ if you're worried they're a little over-costed (meltas should have comparable shooting and FF in my opinion).

They might be replacing transport capacity but giving Terminators a 40cm charge move (especially after a planetfall) is worth 125 points in my opinion. I consider them a force multiplier as the termies are likely to see more than one BtB assault with them. Given Marine SR, and the fact that they're skimmers, I would be more willing to leave units embarked behind cover to take advantage of a long charge at the start of the next turn.

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Squats 2019-10-17

Hi all,

Have been testing the list against E&C and Zombo. Only a couple of games so far. Thought I'd report our findings thus far.

The list feels almost the same as the codex list with a few skimmers added in. We would like to make them a bit more unique and Raven Guardy (its a word.... Honest).

We would add a design note in the doc. Stating that the list primarily represents the Raven Guard as an offensive force. This is the area where they differ most from their brother marines in the fluff. They don't use tanks and heavy equipment in offensive capacities instead relegating them to defensive and backfield roles. In the old 40kid codex all tanks and dreads were 0-1 choices for Raven guard players. If the player wants to use the list to represent the Raven Guard as a defensive force then the use the codex list with some restrictions. Primarily on dreads and terminators which the chapter doesn't have many of after the dropsite massacre (despite their homeworld having the production capacity of a small forgeworld). On the defensive they utilize all the toys available to a codex chapter it is only on the offensive where they differ enough to justify really having an independent list in epic.

Special rules:

We have some issues with allowing Speeders to have planetfall. The fluff doesn't really support it the deep strike rule in 40kid reflects them deploying from low flying TH's not spacecraft. We are also concerned with them using their scout ZOC to ring fence your opponent in their deployment zone. It is even more of an issue with allowing them to drop individually and reroll the scatter.

We would also like to replace the garrison rule with one that states unless drop podding or teleporting all formations have to take transports. This would have the same effect.

We are pretty much OK with the others.

Units:

Raven Guard Assault we would like to see scout added to this unit and give them a name change (Raven Guard commando's or operative something like that). The Raven guard typically wage guerrilla campaigns and rely heavily on scouting formations this adds a bit more flavour. We would also like to see the transport rule dropped from them (leaving the Caestus as the only ground transport option) and them added to the note allowing Terminators to use drop pods. We would also like to restrict some of the upgrade to this unit.

The Caestus is perhaps a bit overpointed. They haven't had much of an in game impact so far.

We can't see a reason for people to take the LS Typhoon over a Tempest when they cost the same and the Tempest is much better. Maybe a points change here.

4 Scouts with sniper are pretty cool but 6 puts their cost perilously close to tactical marines. Perhaps a slight points brake on the upgrade to encourage people to take larger units.

We would like to remove Whirlwinds and perhaps bikes from the list. We would like to see preds as upgrades only. This as previously mentioned is because they are not typically used as offensive weapons.

There may be a reason to add in the variant TH's as the Raven Guard are supposed to have many more drop pods and TH's than a normal codex chapter.

Thats the list of observations and suggested changes so far. Would love to hear your thoughts on them.

I'd like the RG Assault to have a generic name, since other chapters deploy their assault squads on foot on occasion. It'd be much more useful for other lists that way.

The other suggestions sound interesting (though I think bikes and Preds are sound offensive weapons).

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The changes have been suggested to better differentiate the R.Guard from codex marines. The list needs to reflect typical R.Guard Forces. The R.Guard are very much a codex chapter in the fluff. The only really difference is in how they utilize their resources. R.Guard in the fluff don't utilize tanks in an offensive capacity. They are rarely even mentioned using Rhino's preferring instead skimmers and TH's.

The list should essentially consist of scouts, skimmers and Assault troops as these are definitely what the R.Guard prefer. The changes to the R.Guard Assault were to give the list more character by adding another scouting element. The name is immaterial as long as similar units have similar stats for example Grey Hunters are essentially foot assault marines as are Black Templar sword brethren. There is no need to keep the name generic as long as units with similar capabilities in 40kid are given the same stats in epic.