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Merge Mechanics

 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:15 pm 
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It would definitely be an act of desperation, and there would be no guarantee that the survivors would rally (3+ at best), and the implication here is that this is actually done to increase the strength / control of an advanced formation near the enemy.

However, as this seems contrary to the spirit of the game, surely a FAQ would suffice?

For 'count-back' read 'tie-breaker' victory conditions


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Dave wrote:
@E&C - But you can do that with a broken swarm with leadership anyway, and most other armies for that matter. I'm not seeing how this is open to abuse?

Merging has the exact same potential impact on victory conditions that you've been using to argue against cross-swarm spawning. In fact, since a broken formation is usually going to have at least as many units as a typical spawn, it's actually going to be more effective at manipulating victory conditions than cross-swarm spawning.

"It's going to tiebreak. I'll Withdraw over to a formation below half, where merging in the end phase will push that formation above half strength to save points." Or... "My BTS is in danger and this swarm is nearly useless, so it's better to Withdraw over and merge to bulk up the BTS."

We've been discussing "Count as destroyed" for the merging formation as a drawback, and it is. However, it is minor. In the case of tiebreak point manipulation it's going to be simple math - which option takes more points. There aren't any other consequences to the decision because the game is over. For BTS it only matters if the BTS is the merging formation. From a practical perspective a BTS that's eligible to merge is likely to be vulnerable anyway so there's not likely to be a heavy downside to merging.


In the case E&C is concerned about, the drop unit/break/pseudo-March is that much more funky. The Nids would intentionally break just to gain the free move, because they know they will effectively auto-rally as long as they reach a synapse swarm. That might not be so bad, as the Nid player can only definitely count on 3 moves - either they successfully March or they move/break/withdraw 2. However, a Nid player could gamble on attempting a much larger move if needed to win a game.

==

Edit: And while we're on the topic - any kind of merge puts a wrinkle in same-swarm spawning because you now have 2 swarm "pools" going into the same swarm.


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:48 pm 
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You're right, I didn't catch that before. How about something like this then:

Quote:
In the End phase, after rallying and spawning, Synapse Swarms with at least one synapse unit can absorb other formations comprised completely of brood units. Absorbing should occur after victory conditions are checked or after victory points are totaled in the event of a tiebreak.


We'll probably need a FAQ for it too but this will eliminate the abuse. Either that or we go with MV's suggestion and just do it at the beginning of a turn before teleport/tunnel etc.

Re: the absorb/same-swarm spawning I've been allowing the absorbed formations losses to be spawned back to the absorbing swarm in Onachus.

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:41 pm 
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Rather than change VC checks (which really should be the absolute last thing in a turn, after every bit of action is resolved), I think it would be better to just merge at the start of the turn. Same effect, but sidesteps the funkiness.

The only downside I can think of is that a formation which fails to Rally can use its end phase withdrawal move to get to a Synapse. I know that falling back to a synapse is flavorful, but it will result in situations where it is favorable for the Nids to fail.


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:46 pm 
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Well...is it allowed to re-roll a succesfull Initiative roll with Supreme Commander?
If not then it is of no consequence. If yes the consequences (voluntarily fail a rally test) are still minor.

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:50 pm 
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Can you expand on that last part Neal? What situations do you anticipate?

I don't think you can voluntarily fail a rally BL.

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:58 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Can you expand on that last part Neal? What situations do you anticipate?

An uncontrolled formation is broken and withdraws. Due to tactical situation, no synapse formation can move close to pick it up during the turn.

In the end phase, if the uncontrolled formation rallies, it's a seriously damaged formation stuck where it withdrew, with a really poor Initiative. If the rally fails, it could take a Withdrawal move and get close enough to a synapse to merge.

I think in many cases, the player would prefer to fail the rally test and move to a merge.

That's bad. Generally, incentivizing failure is not good good game design.


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:11 pm 
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Got it. The only way I see around that would be to add some clause that the absorbed swarm had to be within 15cm/coherency/whatever of the absorbing swarm in the previous action phase. I think at that point though we'd be well into "overly wordy".

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:17 pm 
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Reminds me of the old Necron list where it was somewhat beneficial to break.

Any way to modify how the Nids deal with rallying or would that become too complicated? Perhaps a failed rally did not allow for any movement, but a successful one allowed either rallying or an additional movement.

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:30 pm 
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I'd rather not get into modifying the core mechanics of the game to deal with one potentially abusive scenario. We can see if we can get something concise for the suggestion above, not allow broken swarms to be absorbed, or allow it but the absorbing formation breaks/is penalized in some way (force a marshall or a hold?).

My preference is still the first one though. What do people think of this:

Quote:
Synapse Swarms with at least one synapse unit can absorb other formations comprised completely of brood units in the Strategy phase. Absorbing should occur before anything else in the Strategy phase, such as placing units with tunneler or teleport, or the strategy roll.

In order to be absorbed all the units in a formation must currently be within 15cm of a synapse unit from the absorbing formation and must have been there during the previous turn's Action phase. The absorbing formation...

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:50 pm 
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I think everyone is freaking out about a gamey/powergaming tactic that is very "unproven" at this point. I think that's what Play test are for?

I really don't like the idea on merging at the Strategy phase..How about this?


Quote:
After Rallies and checking Victory Conditions any Synapse-less Swarms(Formations) may merge into Synapse Swarm if it in normal Coherency with said formation. Any BM follow to the new formation and Swarms that are broken may not merge.


I would say Spawning comes after this. Because the merger and merged could both Spawn and make the new formation bigger. Better to merge then spawn. Bear mind this idea would be use with the Free Spawning anywhere concept with either "If you got em' Spawn em'" or the "Dead plus Pool" ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:27 pm 
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Only allowing merging at the end of an activation solves all these problems...


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:04 am 
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zombocom wrote:
Only allowing merging at the end of an activation solves all these problems...

I don't think so? I think it may make it more complicated.


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:15 am 
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How so? Broken formations will no longer be able to merge, which gets rid of those problems. There are no VC related problems as it happens during the turn, and a note that the merged formation can carry out no further actions solves everything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:39 am 
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Couldn't an 'active' swarm move to a 'broken' swarm and merge at the end of the activation? Seems a reasonable way of picking up lost brood creatures to me.


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