Paint works too but would you use it if you can get Photoshop?

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Hena if people were satisfied with the way the core list worked, the vairant lists wouldn't need different basic rules. No one messes with ATSKNF in any meaninful way, nor have the Eldar or Chaos rules been fragmented this way. The only other faction that has anything like the variability that 'nids have is Squats. I understand that you feel the rules work, but it is obvious that a significant minority, perhaps a majority, feel they need improvement and/or streamlining. The number of voices that sre saying no change needs to be made is small, an while this is subject to a reporing bias, it is clear that at least a significant fraction of players feel the 'nids need anywhere from some to lots of revision. A Neal has stated, he is just trying to get converstion going so Chroma can make educated decisions when he takes up the reigns once again.

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With all these discussions, there is still no clear 'line in the sand' as to what each list is to represent.

Already we have the excuse that 9.2.1 is waiting on the latest Nid codex in order to formalise the list. To me that is ridiculous as 9.2.1 should represent the older style and miniatures available. We have Leviathan to represent the newer units. So until some order and direction is agreed on, you are always going to have mixed opinions like this as no-one really has any confidence in any list that exists.

How many votes taken take into account all the lists? How many people know the intricasies of all the lists?

With all these threads, can we please have some concrete decisions on what each list is to represent and not have cross overs. Do we really need 3 nid lists? Why can't the base nids be incorporated with the drop nids and give the player the choice on how they wish to play it?

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Honestly, Chroma has a lot on his plate and I think something (some things) should be handed out to others to do.

The most important thing is the NetEA doc as without it, the NetEA really not as accepted as EpicUK is.

Secondly Nid development has been stifled for 18 months

Finally, Eldar appears not to be moving in any direction that leads to discussions - so we take it that it is finished even though there are still changes being discussed? These discussions have been going on for several months on and off.

Chroma does an awesome job. I believe if he is more focussed on one thing however (NetEA doc) we would see some real results.

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The presence or absence of an active AC has nothing to do with whether rules are accepted. Certainly Chroma could have prevented the fracturing with proper sheparding and development, but the list would still have evolved and changed from it's current form. People play different basic racial rules because they are unsatisfied with the ones that exist. Except for Squats, no other faction has the same dissent over basic racial characteristics.

As to the other points, I'll touch on a few.
1) Saying that most of the games you play use reorg is meaningless. To say that the system you prefer and are used to is the one you use says nothing about the overall balance of said system.
2b) Without reorg, people will tend to have relatively fixed formations that are played. A pile for each formation is the most you need, an armylist that says what the formation contains the least.
5) Synapse range almost never needs to be measured. Therefore it would be superfluous without the reorg. Reorg messes with the mirroring in the GT scenario, something that has no precendent. Other armies change core mechanics of the game, none change the GT scenario directly, since balancing that way throws any non-GT balance off. Get rid of it, as it is unneccessary.

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Hena, you said similar things about the Tau list a couple of years ago, a list that was widely disliked at the time. I'd say you're on the same side of the argument on the Tyranids, too.

The Tyranids can, again, be finished, with the backing of a strong and competent Champion, in a relatively short space of time, but it needs a decent shake-up first because the current system in 9.2.1 is not particularly liked by most (And that's why there are now 5 competing Tyanid lists).

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That's the entire point of this set of discussions. We're trying to come up with a single set of basic rules to be used by all nid lists.

The main reason there are varient lists is because a lot of people are unhappy with the mechanics as laid out in 9.2.1, and due to the lack of any updates in two years, we have made alternative proposition lists. We're not going to shelve those lists until we at least see some movement on the "official" list, as it's been sitting static for two years now.

Leviathan was frozen before because Chroma ensured us that 9.2.1 would soon be updated. After more than a year without an update I decided to unfreeze it. I'm not freezing it again, but I am interested in coming up with one core set of special rules.

I dunno, I get the strong feeling that the various list developers are actually quite keen on sorting this problem out once and for all. After all, it benefits them in myriad ways too: larger testing pool, less variables to balance, wider acceptance etc.

Actually this seriously need to be discussed. Old crappy unavailable miniature for the core list, why oh why ?
I mean, why not new, nice looking unavailable miniatures ?

I even remember how Jervis himself was against the return of dactylis, malefactors and all that (Assault spawn was the catch all). Anyone with sense know that the old slug like nid tank should never have seen the day.

I don't get how people can argue for pages about the weapon loadout of a marine tank that is altered in every publication FW makes, but insist on using a 1995 ugly miniature to represent a unit that has been retconed out (eaten by the squats ?) anyway.

I can't see a lot of appeal in a list that does not include anything good made for the nids over those last 15 years, and insist you buy shitty old models that are also already badly painted (ebay) and very expansive (OOP collector, dude).

I suggest we make a variant list for those who want to use bad minis at all cost and feel insulted by the count as rule for some reason. But i think it would be cool if the core tyranid list was actually something that we would want to play.

Totally agree with the above. The other army with the most variability, orks, had their plethora of vehicles reduced to gunwagon, battlewagon and flakwagon, and the same should apply for Tyranids.

Whether a Tryanid Heavy Assault Spawn (or whatever) is represented by a Malefactor or a Carnifex with talons/claws should be immaterial, and moving to this would make variant lists much easier to produce.

I'm opposed to removing the old models from the list, but merging them like this sounds fine. They don't have to do exactly what they did back in the day, but there should be some unit in the list which they can reasonably represent.

Although merging them with 'fexes might seem weird, as carnifexes is a pretty iconic unit in 40k ("Oh yes, these slugs here, these are carnifexes. But those slugs over there are Trygons.")

I'm guessing Trygons will be kept, as they are now a 40k Nid unit?

I take it you never had any then?

Seriously though, there are a lot of armies out there for nids that use these minis. That in itself should not be ignored as even though they are hard to get, that is what exists. Until you have a production of affordable minis to represent the newer units that are acceptable, what is the expectation?

I know you mentioned 'counts as'. Has there ever been opposition to this? If it was done properly, I would have little issue with it.

Devils Advocate: If there is a majority of nid armies out there with the old minis, why should they not be represented? Why should the development not cater for the old style and not change with the whim of GW every so often that they decide they cam make a quick buck?

Games are better when they are dead. Bloodbowl proved this as have most of the Specialist games. I see little reason to keep speed with the money machine when we can have 2 variants or a well thought out representative list that caters for both.

Just an alternate view

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