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Command and Control for Nids

 Post subject: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:05 pm 
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So, first, I apologize for butting in like a johnny-come-lately. I haven't done anything with Nids for a while now and just recently realized the divergence. Mea culpa.
=======

I think everyone agrees that accurately modeling the command and control for Tyranids is critical to having the list work. I suspect that imperative is behind everyone tweaking the system to see if they could come up with something better. Hopefully, that means that everyone will also agree that ironing out a single, unified system is of utmost importance.

My purpose in starting this thread is to do a compare/contrast and let people make their cases about which system they prefer.

================

Hamman's World, 9.2 (also Jormungandr/Draconis?)

Initiative - 2+, +2 to engage, +2 to rally
Engage will only ever fail on a suppressed/retain combination. Other actions more difficult, favoring Engage (more than stats alone favor it). Rallying will be automatic unless the formation is broken and will never be worse than 3+.

Swarms - Free creation of formations before the game starts. Shifting during the game is theoretically very fluid, but limited in practicality.

Synapse - Radius control. Units outside range are destroyed in the end phase.

========

Onachus

Initiative - 1+, no -2 to rally when broken
Strong command/control in general. No additional emphasis on Engage and can definitely fail to do so. Rallying will be automatic unless enemy is in 30cm range and is no more difficult when broken.

Swarms - Preset, with add-ons available. Swarms can merge only after all Synapse destroyed and may not otherwise be changed. The absorbed swarm counts as destroyed for victory conditions.

Synapse - No control distance. Synapse formations which lose all synapse are -2 Initiative. Formations without Synapse may not capture/contest and count as destroyed for tiebreak (only tiebreak - not all victory conditions).

=========

Leviathan

Initiative - 1+ for led swarms (synapse/vanguard), 2+ for Independents, +1 to Engage, +1 to Rally
Net results for Engage/Rally in synapse swarms are same as Hamman's World, but there is greater flexibility for other actions. Independent Swarms are harder to control.

Swarms - Modular build, requiring ratio of Synapse/Common/Uncommon in each swarm. No merging or changing in play.

Synpase - No control distance. Formations without Synapse are -3 Initiative.


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:18 pm 
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My preference is for the Leviathan style, as it is, simply put, the least complicated.

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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:50 pm 
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This may be fruitful for the discussion. Dave and I had a discussion off board in which I asked him to define the differences between Hamman's World Tyranid list (9.2.1) and the Onachus 0.21. Posted with his permission:

Quote:
I tried to be concise but there's probably some nuances that I'm overlooking from being so familiar with the lists.

Expendable: I added clarification here (incorporated some FAQs into the rule andexplained how it interacts with crossfire and disrupt) and made it a generic rule. Game-wise it plays the same.

Tunneler: Again, additional clarification from the main rulebook (when you do things, how you place Tunnelers, etc). It plays as it does from the rule book, except all tunnelers have to be within 15cm of the surface point (there was some clamoring for this on the forum).

Resolute: I added this but nothing uses it yet. The plan was to give to Trygonsand Harridans as I didn't want to make them fearless.

Planetary Assault: Is completely new. It's meant to represent the “rain of spores” instead of planetfall.

The Hive Mind: This replaces Relentless. Instead of +2 to engage and rally, it'signore the -2 mod for being broken when rallying.

Mobility: Won't be around in the next interaction. I figure we could cut it out and just give things Walker.

Synapse and Brood: I made these their own rules for clarification. There were used in 9.2.1 but never defined separately from everything else. I tied Expendable to Brood, game-wise it's the same but clearer I think.

Spawning: This differs from 9.2.1 in two notable ways. One, units can only be re-spawned to their parent formation. This came from Jaldon and after the tests I think it helps with the balance (and allows us to go to a regular BTS). In 9.2.1 you had one big spawn pool and could bring things back where ever you wanted them (assuming you rolled high enough on your spawn roll). You can't do that in Onachus. If a swarm has 4 Termagants and 2 Hormgaunts then it can't spawn back 5 Termagants, or a Carnifex, etc. Two, 9.2.1 had spawning as 2d3 and then you had -1d3 for certaincriteria. I thought that was confusing (“do you roll 2d3, and thenroll a 1d3 to subtract?”). To clear that I up, I just went all positive: if you're not broken, you get 1d3; if you're not within 30cmof the enemy you get 1d3.

Tyranid Swarms: This was in 9.2.1 and I dropped it. It pretty much enforced Synapse Range (all brood with 15cm of a synapse create) and allowed Brood to be moved from formation to formation. The former didn't really seem to add much to the game and just made for one more thing to remember. The latter was removed so we could go to a regular BTS (more on that below). It's still kind of around with absorb from Synapse Swarms (see below) but in a very limited manner.

Tournament Scenario Victory Conditions: This was replaced with Synapse Swarms in Onachus (sort of a catch all army list rule). In 9.2.1 Brood couldn't contest/control objectives. They can now in Onachus, but only if their Synapse Creatures are alive. In 9.2.1 BTS used to be you had to kill half or more of the Synapseunits on the table. I thought this was pretty radical. It's the only special rule I know of that changes a victory condition and I don't think that something that core to Epic should be tinkered with. Now BTS for 'nids is just BTS. Onachus is able to do this because you can only spawn back swarm losses and don't have reorganization. In 9.2.1 Tie breaker had its own calculations. Again, I didn't want to mess with victory conditions so this was dropped.

Synapse Swarms: Like I said above, this replaced the Victory Conditions rule and tidied up a few other things. I handled what happened to brood units when all of a Synapse Swarms' synapse units were destroyed. This was a confusing point in 9.2.1 and I'm still not sure how it's supposed to be handled. What I did in Onachus was say that they go to initiave 3+, can't capture and contest objectives and count as destroyed for tie break. So, opponents are rewarded for “shooting the big ones” (the formation counts as destroyed for tie break) and Tyranids revert to their animistic tendencies when they're not controlled (they have a hard time activating and can't do anything with objectives). The latter is how I represented Synapse Range in the list.

The Synapse Swarms rule also allows you to absorb these leaderless brood creatures. In 40k, brood out of Synapse Range retreat towards the closest synapse creature. Rather than try to write a rule to that effect I just made it worth the player's while to do it. Absorbing is pretty much the reorganization part of the 9.2.1 Tyranid Swarms special rule. The notable difference being that an absorbed formation is counted as destroyed for the purposes of Victory Conditions. This is so we can have a regular BTS. If the BTS's synapse is gone, it counts as destroyed for tie break, but you still have to kill all the brood that's left for BTS. To keep the Tyranid player from interfering with this, if they absorb the BTS into another formation the opponent gets BTS.

Army List: The differences in the army list are pretty clear. I moved to the Ork model. In 9.2.1 you bought Synapse (which couldn't total over 1/3 ofthe list) and added Brood to it. And Independent Swarm couldn't be more than 1/3 of the list as well. Rather than putting the onus on the player to check to see if their list is legal I figured a list that enforces itself would be simpler. The only restriction is the normal 1/3 for titans one.

½ Gaunts Rule: This rule upset Matt and Chris to no end and I dropped it. It made Hormagaunts and Termagants lost in an assault only count as ½ of a unit. So if you lost 5 of them the opponent would only get +3 to resolution. When I played with this with 9.2.1 I found I didn't need to prep an assault and lay a BM or even worry about support too much. I just piled the gaunts in there and went for it. It just felt like a tremendous crutch and as with BTS and the tie break, I didn't want to tinker with a core mechanic of Epic so I dropped it.

Initiative: Onachus is 1+ (and 3+ for synapse-less synapse swarms) and ignores the-2 for being broken to rally. 9.2.1 is 2+ and gets a +2 to rally and engage.

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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:59 pm 
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Initiative

I actually think all these systems are pretty easy in terms of just being a set of minor mods. So, the real question here is what sort of flavor do we want to create with them.

Hamman's world is set up to heavily favor Engage actions, but it also provides Nids with Engage as a virtual failsafe activation they can count on.

Onachus gives better command/control in terms of flexibility of action. It's not as easy to rally as Hamman's, but it retains the bonuses for un-breaking. Formations are likely to keep BMs a bit longer. No push to Engage actions but also no failsafe. Better at rallying that broken than Hamman's, but slightly worse otherwise.

Leviathan is a lot like Hamman's. It has a little more control/flexibility for Synapse swarms, keeping an Engage encouragement and failsafe, while downgrading control a bit for Independents (lesser rallying ability and Engage guarantee).

====

I don't have a clear favorite here, but I like the Engage-emphasis of Hamman's or Leviathan over Onachus. When considering those two, I don't expect that Synpapse-led shooty formations being a bit more flexible in Leviathan would cause substantial balance issues, but I do have concerns that Genestealers and Lictors might suffer, since they are such iconic units. It's a toss-up.


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:01 pm 
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Quote:
Mobility: Won't be around in the next interaction. I figure we could cut it out and just give things Walker.

That was tried about 4 years ago with the Tyranids (Back when there was an active-ish champion), and it was bloody awful. Took far too much time.

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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:05 pm 
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My rational for the Onachus list follows.

The bump to 1+ came from fluff descriptions of the Tyranids (Warriors of Ultramar, Brood War, Desert Raiders). Those books depicted swarm movement as organic and with one will. It's when the link with the Hive Mind is broken that the brood creatures revert to their animalistic tendencies (hence the 3+ for synapse-less Synapse Swarms).

Changing the +2 to rally to ignoring the -2 for being broken was to give Tyranid players another reason to move away from the enemy when they were broken (beyond the reduction in spawning). It's also fluff influenced as Tyranids are supposed throw away brood creatures like humans do ammunition. I see that as Tyranids, effectively, not having to worry about the morale of their troops and their need for self-preservation.

Having preset swarms allowed the list to go back to the regular BTS victory condition. I thought this was important because I don't think lists should be tinkering with something so fundamental to the game.

The absorbing of synapse-less Synapse Swarms was kept as a toned version or reorganization and as a way to abstractly represent Synapse Range without having a rule for it. In 40k, brood creatures out of synapse range fall back to the closest synapse creature. Rather than writing a rule to that effect I just made it worth while for the player to absorb the leaderless brood creatures (they'll be 3+, won't be expendable, and can't control/contest anything).

The lack of Synapse Range is mostly because I feel it didn't add much to the game. It was just another thing to remember and didn't really keep the Tyranid player from doing anything in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:22 pm 
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Darnit! I had a long post and timed out, so my browser deleted it!
===========

Summary:

Swarms

Merging and shifting is cool in concept but rarely done and complicated. I think the Onachus version, which is limited to a Synapse Creature picking up uncontrolled broods, gets most of the flavor without the complication.


Swarm (list) Construction
Hamman's is great for flexibility but too wide open.
The modular system of Leviathan is good, but restrictive.
The volume discount of Onachus is good.

I think the modular system can be opened up to give most of the flexibility of Hamman's, in a much simpler way than Hamman's. AND I think we can build in the volume discounts. This is strictly a spitballing example, so don't start picking at the numbers:

Core Swarm (just like Leviathan)
1-3 Synapse
2+ Common
0-1 Uncommon

Support Swarm (1 per core)
1-3 Synapse
0+ Common
1-4 Uncommon

Common Broods
Gaunts - 6 for 100 or 12 for 175
Gargoyles - 4/100, 8/175
Raveners - 4/125, 6/175

This gives lots of room for different phase lists to modify. Early phase - cut down on availability of Synapse and Uncommon and increase discounts for Common to offset. Nidzilla - more WE synapse, allow some big bugs as common and/or deeper volume discounts on big uncommon.

Independents, biotitans and dedicated swarms (like the Symbiote Swarms in Leviathan) can be set up on a list-by-list basis, depending on their respective focus.


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:24 pm 
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I am in favour of the 9.2.x rules.

The only problem I really have with 9.2.x is where you have to keep count of various (more than 1 or 2) ratios to make the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:35 pm 
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Synapse
Tracking the radius is kind of fiddly. One of the things supporting it being around is shuffling broods from one synapse to another. If that's being removed, I think the case for synapse range collapses.

That leaves the two competing ideas of Onachus and Leviathan

  • -2 Initiative, plus victory point penalties (no capture/contest, count as destroyed)
  • -3 Initiative

If you want to put focus on Synapse Creatures, then -2 + penalties is better.
If you want simple, -3 is better.

==

Personally, I lean towards the -2 + penalties. I still like the idea of synapse being a major key to beating Nids. I think being able to claim BTS by killing off a big block of synapse creatures is cool (BTS would count as destroyed if you did this) and I like the idea that as the synapse network is beaten down the force loses overall direction (can't capture/contest).

It is, however, definitely more fiddly and I could be convinced on that basis.


Last edited by nealhunt on Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:53 pm 
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-2 + penalties for me too. Have to admit that this is a long overdue process being started here. Making the base rules for 'nids similar and changing some of the inconsistancies is needed, IMO.

These might be useful talking points as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:07 am 
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Throwing my 2 Cents.....even if its worthless here ;)

Initiative - 2+, they get +1 for Engaging and Ignore Broken -2 if controlled by Synapse or Independent.

Swarms - Preset formation. Formations that lose Synapse may join another active/unbroken Synapse formation.

Synapse - No control distance. Synapse formations which lose all synapse are -2 Initiative. Formations without Synapse may not capture/contest and count as destroyed for tiebreak.

========================================

Spawning - I like the ability to add creatures to any formation not just the parent one.

BTS - Kill 50%(Or some % that's fair)of Synapses Creatures to achieve it


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:27 pm 
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My 2 cents, entirely from playing 9.2.1 extensively.

First of all. I think 9.2.1 plays well. In some respects, I think the current Nid development is a step in the wrong direction.

Initiative: This depends on army list design. For 9.2.1, there is a severe lack of ranged shooting. Consider the 2:1 ratio for uncommon broods as well, and it is hard to create a list with decent shooting. Engagements are THE way to go with 9.2.1. If you fail to retain an engagement (which is possible with BM:s, a Nid swarm unleashes 0-2 AP6+ shots and stands still. This is definitely un-Tyranidish.

The difference between 1+ and 2+ depends on what feel you wants to create for the army in general. 1+ is the disciplined approach, hive-controlled so to speak. 2+ is a more erratic, "instinctive" approach. The +1 or +2 depends on which direction you want to go.

Synapse range: This could probably go. In 9.2.1 it serves as an engagement restraint, especially if you use Hive Tyrants, reducing the effective engagement range. If I recall the development correctly, Synapse was introduced to limit huge Gaunt swarms from spreading all over the table, claiming 2-3 objectives in the end turns.

My preference would be Leviathan for simplicity, or 2+ with +2 for engage and +1 for rally.

Other rules that have been mentioned in this discussion:

Mobility: As E&C points out, it is an easy way to reduce the amount of Walker rolls. With wholesale Walker, it is only a 1:36 risk of losing a unit so you will use terrain, causing difficult terrain tests over and over again.

Spawning: The current 9.2.1 rules' primary effect is that the Nids can weather the first turn shooting as they move to strategic positions. With the reduction from nearby enemies, spawning is heavily reduced from turn 2 onwards. The exceptions are Blitz guard swarms and the Dominatrix. As Hena always points out, Spawning is a rule that makes Nids differ from all other armies, and it is fun to use. War engine spawning is more theoretical than used in real-life gaming. With changes to spawning (like only gaunts for instance), the ratio between common and uncommon broods or the list structure (moving towards the Ork design).

Gaunt: I don't think the gaunt rule is game-breaking. I think the rule was developed to help Nids out. They have to set up engagements with a low SR, and due to swarm sizes and generally mediocre stats they are extremely susceptible to being engaged. Most of the times, the Gaunt rule hands one 'pip' to the Nids. The cost of Synapse swarms are high as well, infantry with 20 cm move with no ranged shooting to speak of.

Design discussions about Nids have to factor things in the totality of each list design. 9.2.1 also contains the Synapse-less bomb, wiping entire formations if you fail a RA4+ save too many. I once lost a game in turn 1, since I promptly failed EVERY synapse creature armour save.

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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:40 pm 
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My rationale for the Leviathan list rules is hopefully clear; simplicity.

I've always liked how epic simulates battle through simple rules with complex effects, and I feel nid development up to this point hasn't followed that ethos very well.

I see no need for non-fixed formations, they're no more likely than orks have guys swapping between formations, and it's a massively complicated system for something that rarely comes up and is better dealt with in other ways. It also makes army building far more complicated than other armies, and less fair on the opponent as they don't really know what formations they'll be facing.

Instead, I went for fixed formation sizes, with 1-3 synapse choices in each, 2+ common clusters and 0-1 uncommon per common. The only thing that's "unflexible" about this is the common clusters, but that could probably be changed to 1+ without unduly affecting the list balance too much. [EDIT: The more I think about this, the more I like it as an idea!]

I find that I can actually build more flexible lists with leviathan than 9.2.1, because of the lack of direct war engine restriction, 1:1 common:uncommon ratio, multiple synapses per formation etc.

The initiative system I went for was hopefully intuitive and simple, rewarding synapse formations and meaning that those who lose their synapse are unlikely to do more than hold. I went with 2+ on independants just because they don't have the risk of losing synapse, but I could happily move them back to 1+.

One of my goals with the list was to not have any tournament-scenario-specific special rules, hence the Leviathan list follows the normal victory conditions, including BTS for the largest formation. This is for simplicity and fairness to the opponent, as well as making the list easier to work with in other scenarios. This is also why I have the -3 penalty for losing synapse, to make synapse loss a big deal without having to adjust the scenario conditions like Onachus.

The "Spawning" in leviathan is completely pie-in-the-sky and probably potentially unfair and overpowered, so should probably be best ignored for now, but it was just an attempt to try a completely different mechanic.

-----------------------------------------------

It really would be great if we could focus these three lists down into one potential new direction for the nid development, and I'm happy to help in whatever way to get that to happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:12 pm 
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For comparison this is a summary of the Jormungandr/Draconis list styles as it isn't that close to 9.2.1. with elements similar to Leviathan and Onachus

Jormungandr

Initiative - 2+ for Synapse Led, Vanguard (Independent formations and Bio-Titans) and Spacecraft. 4+ for anything else (effectively equivalent to 2+ with a -2 modifier and penalties). Also gets the 9.2.1 +2 modifier for rallying and engaging.

Swarms - 9.2.1 style free formation building (but at a 1:1 common/uncommon ratio, with bigger common broods of 6 stands). Swarms may not merge in game and individual units may not jump swarms.

Synapse - No control distance. Synapse formations which lose all synapse are effectively at -2 Initiative. Formations without Synapse (or fully Vanguard) may not capture/contest

Spawning - Fixed spawning values dependent on synapse units and enemy distance (Rallying phase) or swap 1 blast marker removed for 1 spawning point (regrouping action). Only Inf and LV brood creatures can be spawned to any Synapse formation but only Gaunts and Gargoyles recycle to the spawning pool when killed.

Mobility and Expendable as 9.2.1. Without Number modified slightly to include recycling back to spawning pool. Tunnellers is the rulebook rule with clarifications/restrictions.

BTS is killing all the synapse units in the formation that starts the game with the highest number (AV's count as 2 and WE count their DC)

Draconis

Initiative - As Jormungandr.

Swarms - AMTL style 1 Bio-titan formation with 2 support formations (with additional limits)

Synapse - As Jormungandr

Spawning - Can't Spawn

Mobility, Expendable, Without Number and Tunnellers as Jormungandr.

BTS is killing the most expensive Bio-Titan Swarm or the Dominatrix


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:41 pm 
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Wow, let the digging in of the heels begin...

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