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Eldar hit-and-run vs ZoC...

 Post subject: Re: Eldar hit-and-run vs ZoC...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:29 pm 
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Mephiston wrote:
Neal, are you saying that it is perfectly legal to move deeper into a ZOC if you later leave it?

So if my scouts put 1cm of ZOC on them you can move through 19cm of ZOC to leave the over side, terrain, models and their ZOC permitting? If so that is certainly not how I've interpreted things.

I don't know of anything in the rules that states or implies there is a "direct" or "shortest path" requirement, so yes.

That said, there are plenty of practical limitations that would come into play to keep it from happening in most cases.

Units that aren't in ZoC would have to go around. The formation has to retain coherency, so that would likely limit movement nearly as much as a "move out by the fastest route" requirement. Also, just because you're moving out of the ZoC of one unit does not mean you can ignore the ZoC of other units. Avoiding the ZoC of other, nearby units will sometimes mean the covered unit is going to have to back out and go around.

I think it's somewhat like barging in that on paper it can theoretically be abused in weird ways, but in practice the interaction of the rules makes it a non-issue the vast majority of the time.

==

I agree this is "gamey," but it's a RAW answer, not sportsmanship issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Eldar hit-and-run vs ZoC...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:52 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
I personally believe the "sporting" option is fairest. Can we please try to opt out on confusing and "gamey" options?


What's gamey about shooting and then moving? I agree that it's "gamey" to move straight through the ZoC, but I fail to see why eldar should have to move before shooting. It's an abstraction to represent them shooting *while* moving anyway isn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: Eldar hit-and-run vs ZoC...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:02 pm 
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See Mephiston's post that I qoutes as beinga good point in page 2 Ulrik :-)
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 Post subject: Re: Eldar hit-and-run vs ZoC...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:23 pm 
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Regardless, it is a good point for the ever-growing FAQ.

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 Post subject: Re: Eldar hit-and-run vs ZoC...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:01 am 
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Although I am mainly an Eldar player, I have never seen or used this particular tactic, though I am also unsure whether a FAQ is going to help. There are two issues being raised here:- the timing of events; and scouts putting enemy in ther ZoC. Let us consider an Eldar Falcon fomation facing a Marine scout formation.

Timing
Lets assume the Falcons start outside the scouts' ZoC but within 30 cms of them. The Falcons declare a double, but decide to fire before they move. Here I believe the firing is entirely resolved first, and if the scouts break, they withdraw before the Falcons move - so the Falcons can move over the ground originally occupied by the scouts.
I believe this is clear, and how the Eldar have always been played - though it is more usual for the Eldar to fire and then retire, rather than advancing closer to the enemy army.

Scouts ZoC
Given the above timing, if the Falcons start in the ZoC of the scouts, I agree that it is possible for the Falcons to fire first potentially breaking the scouts, who would then have to withdraw (though they can halt 16cms away from the Falcons in a broken state, still providing a barrier of sorts). Subsequently the Falcons would be able to double forward. In essence, the scouts end up in the same position as they would if they had been fired upon and broken by another Eldar formation (the 'standard' counter used by all other races to defeat this tactic). The only difference here is that it is the Falcons themselves that can fire on and break the scouts.

I am not sure that this is actually a significant issue, though I agree it could be irritating to have one's tactics thwarted in this fashion.
Although many Eldar formations could win an assault against the Marine scouts (advancing a single move afterwards), few Eldar formations have the firepower to break an opposing scout formation while performing a double; and it is this second move that is the significant difference here.
More importantly, it is usually the case that the Eldar need to reserve the formation's attack for a more important target rather than wasting it on breaking the scouts; using another formation to clear the scouts first like all other races.

I agree with Meph that the situation is potentially more likely towards the end of a game where activations are reduced and the opponent is resorting to using the remnants of a scout formation to try to retain some strategic advantage, but you could also claim that such tactics are equally 'gamey'.

So I would suggest we put this in the same category as a clipping assault on an intermingled target; something that the Eldar opponent will learn from and not do again.


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 Post subject: Re: Eldar hit-and-run vs ZoC...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:14 pm 
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seems kinda odd to me, but then I wasn't even aware that Eldar could move, shoot and break a blocking fm, then move through that previously blocked area. I'm pretty sure I've always played it that you move, shoot, move, calculate hits, broken fm withdraws.

I would play it that the Eldar fm has to move out of ZoC before being able to shoot. To me, being able to break a fm that is ZoCing you by shooting them, thus forcing them to remove the ZoC is way against the intent of the rules, however they are written. Perhaps we should have RAI (rules as intended) rather than RAW, as the rule, as written :)

Isn't there also a case for general game mechanic rules (ZoC, marching etc) overruling race specific special rules (Hit'n'run etc) unless explicitly stated?


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 Post subject: Re: Eldar hit-and-run vs ZoC...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:29 pm 
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mattthemuppet wrote:
Isn't there also a case for general game mechanic rules (ZoC, marching etc) overruling race specific special rules (Hit'n'run etc) unless explicitly stated?


Generally it's the other way around, actually.

I agree that the move out of ZoC should take priority, but others apparently do not.

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