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MaksimSmelchak

Post subject: War "Experts" Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:34 am

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Primarch, Maksim, I don't think your points are heated in any way. Thanks, I'm generally cool, but sometimes anti-Semitism rattles my cage so to speak. I felt myself get a little riled up so I tried to watch myself. It's been a long time since I had a friendly chat about such matters and your post as well as Jimbo's were most edifying in reading. I perceive we all agree in a lot of points, perhaps only the finer detail being of significant variance. I don't find myself disagreeing with much of anything said.

Jimbo's an excellent writer and I really like the way he supports his points.

As for "Latin Jews", they do exist of course, but their presence and impact in Latin society is almost nil.

I tend to disagree with this statement. Please read my earlier reply to Jimbo in this thread for more information.

In PR they almost exclusively live in the "metro" area around the capital, hard (if not impossible) to get kosher products if they weren't. I'd suspect its the same in other countries.

Yes, several places in Europe have banned Jewish ritual animal butchering an "inhumane" despite the fact that Jewish ritual animal butchering causes less pain to the animal and is cleaner than the tremendous majority of modern butchering methods. Jewish legal code requires that animals be treated with respect and butchered humanely (meaning causing a minimum of pain).

As far as the urban residence goes, most Jews practice little of the religion including Kosher food law observance, but the Jewish cultural identity and value system remain.

I figure the "underground" comment was a necessary adaptation.

Yes. The Spanish Inquisition continued in Central and South America long after it had been banned in Europe. There were even still incidents of persecution as long ago as the 1930s in some parts of the Latino world.

Latin society is HEAVILY Catholic and VERY biased towards that faith and views which as we all know are pretty stringent (It's been less than 20 years since it was acceptable for a father to kill or make marry a man who had pre-marital sex with his daughter, nowadays its a different matter...).

I once thought about emmigrating to Spain (I could join ChubbyBob!), but later changed my mind after seeing how dominant the Catholic mindset is over there. I also heavily disliked some of the moral relativism that have become very commonplace in Europe. In retrospect, much of the USA and Israel suffer from equally weak value systems, but I'm less mobile now and don't want to move anymore.

To drive the point home you have ACTUALLY met a PR Jew,

Not a Jew, but I have met several PR Jews over the years at bilingual education conferences. The wife of my old hobby shop owner is Puerto Rican Catholic and she also has Jews in her family. She didn't oppose getting more Jews in the family either since she tried to fix me up with her niece...

I and everyone I know has yet to meet one, not that we haven't had contact with them, in all probability we have, but unless the person tells you, we would know.

Most Jews are secular and retain the Jewish cultural identity and value system without wearing a yarmulke or exhibiting other signs of Jewish religious observance. I've never met a strongly religiously observant Jew from PR. I've met PR Jews who were religiously observant, but not strongly so. Most Jews only wear a yarmulke at Bar Mitzvahs or in a place of worship. Usually it's only strongly religious Jews that wear a yarmulke (also called a kipah in Hebrew; yarmulke is Yiddish) in public.

Do they even use "yarmulkes" in public here? Can't say I have seen one.

I've never seen one worn in public in the PR (other than myself and a Rabbi friend of mine...).

Did such PR Jew ever mentioned what it was like to live in PR and practice their faith?

Yes. We spoke about that. He said that it was hard and he tends to be a little protective of his worship practices.

Having spent a lot of time around Mexicans, I tend to be a little protective myself even though I don't hide it. Some of the younger children at school call me the "hat teacher." Some Catholics (not all, of course, and thankfully so!) still buy into the old discrimination practices of Jews being "Jesus killer." I generally don't enjoy that question if it comes up, but know how to face it and have discussed it rationally with a number of Mexicanos and other Spanish-speakers (Of course, there were a few irrational conversations too... Aaagh!).

Have they "adapted" traditional customs to suit the place they live in?

Yes.

Did you know that most tortillas are unleavened? (Important fact for the Passover holiday)

Many tortillas however do use a small amount of tortula yeast and are therefore leavened.

Much Jewish worship in the Spanish-speaking world tends to be done in a basement (away from prying eyes), which many feel is a custom leftover from the Spanish Inquisition.

There is even a language called Ladino (a mix of Spanish and Hebrew) for the Sephardic Jews (Jews from Spain and the Middle East - sometimes called Oriental Jews) that is analogous to Yiddish for the Ashkenazi Jews (Jews from Europe and Russia). Ladino is a beautiful language.

It's an interesting topic I have read what little there is on the subject here. Just underscores how "invisible" the Jewish community is here.

I left a book reference in the reply to Jimbo earlier in this thread. I also left an Amazon book search with a number of titles for you to peruse should you wish to do so.

Traditional discrimination keeps Spanish-speaking Jews and other minorities from being well-known. As you mentioned the Catholic mindset is very strong and often to the point of drowning out other mindsets.

Since you're part Latino too, as well as Jewish, I'm VERY curious about any information you have on this topic.

Well, I hope my replies satisfy your curiosity. I'm always willing to chat with you off-board as well.

Take care and Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.