Ok Guys, some wild thoughts from 'left field' - please excuse if you have already thought of them

Models
I would tend to treat them like drop pods and DeathStrike launchers respectively:-
Termites (and any other 'disposable' vehicle) can be kept on the table for 'scenic' reasons just like Drop Pods (I also use mine to assist with placing the relevant formations).

'Launchers' could be retained as real vehicles and activate as such. Providing they are still on the table they could provide guidance to the tunneller removing the need to scatter (see below)

To launch or not to launch
(or there is no such thing as a free launch )
Hellbore (and other major assets:-
Treat the Hellbore like a kind of one-shot WE 'missile', the bare launcher as an AV. The Hellbore has 0cm movement (but can tunnel) while the launcer has perhaps 15cm??
When the 'launch' activation is successfully declared, The player records an unmeasured guess at the exit point of the Hellbore which can travel up to perhaps 50cm per turn? When entering the table, if the estimate is over the speed limit and the Launcher has not moved, move the notional exit point back in a straight line towards the launcher.

Disposable vehicles and underground Tyranid swarms start off-table, and take a while to travel - so arrive in turn #2 at the earliest. Their entry point is plotted at the start of the game like spacecraft.
They have to 'activate' to arrive, and may declare an assault, but the scattering process may result in them ending up out of reach of their intended target.

Scattering
I think all unguided formations should scatter 3D6 in a random direction. This simulates tunnelling through rock strata or the availablitiy of tunnels in the right places. (Note I am not suggesting that the player gets to move the exit point first like the Drop pod rules).

WE whose launcher has not moved do not scatter, but my arrive up to 15cm from their intended exit point. The WE must activate to arrive

Enemy formations
Unless assaulting, tunnelling formations may not arrive in the ZoC of enemy units. The opponent moves the exit point the minimum distance to clear the ZoC.

Activateable tunnellers does offer the opportunity to move first and tunnel later (Although I'm inclined towards the simplest solution, that of tunnellers coming from off board). Not much use for squats but tyranids may find it of some use.

As a counter point the scattering distance in epic would be quite a significant distance for Tyranids where Trygons can pretty much sense enemies from underground and emerge as required.

I am begining to lean more and more to using the 0cm movement for all the tunnellers (Moles, Termites, and Hellbore) on the surface just to keep the entire rule clean and simple. Once they fall out of coherency then they are removed as abandoned, and this includes the Hellbore. (Jaldon ducks as the rocks begin to be hurled his way)

To keep everybody happy I still think the TBMs should still play a small role, as a surface guidence system for the tunnellers. Basically if the TBM can see the exit point then the Tunnellers do not scatter, if they cannot see the exit point they do scatter. Once the Tunnellers emerge the TBMs are removed, as their only function has now been served so there is no reason to keep them on the battlefield, in effect they become expendable also.

Just some open air thoughts, no have at me boys

Jaldon

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Tyranid AC

(tosses very small pebble)

With respect to 'disposable' vehicles (Moles, Termites) I agree they get removed. But until that happens, do you consider these to be 'real' vehicles or more a marker (like Drop Pods)? The only real advantage for them being 'real' would be to boost the formation numbers artificially, which might well encourage the formation stays put. But these vehicles would enhance enemy firing capability (AT and AP target) and potentially cause the formation to break when it becomes 'incoherent'** and the vehicles are removed. Sounds a bit clunky, but its your call.

For the Hellbore, is a 0cm WE that much of a problem? Its role will be to advance on an objective with a view to capturing it, so once in place it should act a bit like a mobile fort to support friendly formations (similar to Landing Craft after planet falling). Here I think the main problem would be that it provides an additional activation.

Ginger, Neal had talked about making the Moles and Termites becoming disposable, ergo abandoning them would not be an issue.

Jaldon, as much as I like a comprehensive game, I think the carriages acting as anything more than scenery is going to be problematic. It effectively splits one formation into two, where the termites/troops go off on their own while the carriages remain behind and hold & contest objectives. Apply it to the Hellbore and you get a 3x multiplier. The original Demiurg list was like this and it made the tunnelers all too powerful. Even arming them with nothing still allows them to do their thing.

My guess is a lot of these ideas, while they are very cool, may have to be relegated to an Optional Rules section, or Scenarios. I feel your pain, brother! I went through the same thing with the Dark Eldar. If you look at Raiders 2.0 I put in optional rules that we had cut out in development. Other neat ideas I dumped into the scenario section (in original and 2.0).

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Right now, I'm leaning towards...

1) Start as reserves, off-board (already underground, no launch process).

2) There should be some scatter and/or a small chance they don't surface on the turn designated. Tunneling shouldn't be uber-precise; too many potential unforeseen underground impediments. It also gives a nice excuse for a guidance system upgrade.

3) Guidance would reduce scatter/delay. Similar mechanics across armies is preferred. However, if necessary, the mechanism would not need to be universal, so that a Nid guidance system would be different from Squats/Demiurg, e.g. Nid tunnelers might home in on another formation while the Squat tunneler carriages provide guidance via line of sight.

===

Mechanically....

1) easy

2) Perhaps an Initiative check to surface when designated (comparable to spacecraft activation), and a scatter roll (comparable to planetfall).

3) My suggestion for an on-board guidance "unit" (like carriages) would be that the owning player places them in the deployment zone when they designate coordinates (like the spacecraft models). Guidance benefit is based on Line of Sight. That would give the guidance units a couple of purposes. They can be positioned to provide guidance, or they could be positioned to be a decoy.

They do not activate, but they are "real" models and can be destroyed. That gives the opponent the potential to destroy them and stop the benefit if they determine the expenditure of resources is worth it.

If that's not too complicated for people, that would achieve both goals of giving the carriages real strategic effect and keeping them on the board so we can admire the cool minis.

Can I ask what's actually wrong with the current rule from the rulebook?

That it is too precise?
That it allows you to activate the formation during the turn?

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I think the main thing is that it doesn't allow use of the old carriage models.

Neal, as far as I understand it the rules modifications you're "leaning towards" above don't allow you to use the carriage models anyway?

Personally, I've come to view the carriages as scenario or diorama pieces, rather than models for use in-game.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Wasn't the reason about allowing more flexibility in turn of arrival originally, specially for as some lists are more focused on tunneller and might need that ? I don't really remember but I think I remember this was the argument. I'll need to reread all that, I didn't follow the thread closely.

On the Hellbore carriage, I see no problem with it as a separate formation at all - it is the equivalent of the WE transporting a formation but it is outside rather than inside the WE.

While I understand Neal's perspective over starting all tunnelling units 'off-table', I just think that in this case it would be really nice to have the complete Hellbore model on-table at the start of the game. However this does imply a special rule just for that model which is a bit OTT

I'd rather preserve the rule for backwards compatibility mechanics wise (if not language wise) than start changing things now. That's why my intent was to clarify/nail-down the rule.

2) would be easily implemented but again I'd rather not change the rule mechanics since it's in use already.

3) seems like more complication with relatively little payoff. Effectively we'd be adding another special rule ("Guidance" or similar?) that overrides the scatter that we'd be adding to tunneler as per 2).

Also, "The unit doesn't activate yet it's there" thing seems very weird. How does it interact with objectives, enemy formations, rallying etc.? All that's a lot of extra copy we're adding in there, again with little payoff in my opinion.

I'll add that nothing's keeping people from leaving the model on the board as a marker so a player remembers they have tunnelers. Depending on the opponent they might even let you use it as a piece of terrain too.

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Dave

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Squats 2019-10-17

I am operating under the assumption that the models on the board, in a meaningful fashion, is considered to be a substantial payoff and a primary goal. Take that away, and I agree completely that things are vastly simpler.

I'm for dumping the "we must use minis" idea. Just convince everyone they don't need to use their super-cool, highly nostalgic and generally treasured miniatures...

on 3) I am not sure that we should adopt the half-way house. Either the model is 'real' and is therefore part of a formation that activates, which has guidance capabilities etc; or it is 'scenic' in which case it has no in-game impact at all.

If there is a concern around the tunnelling mechanics, then perhaps the following alternative will help:-

• The Hellbore and Launcher are considered to be two separate formations, with the Launcher being transported 'outside' the Hellbore (use WE rules).
• The Hellbore tunnel exit is plotted before the start of the game like spacecraft and planetfalling, but the WE and Launcher are placed on the table.
• In turn #1, instead of a normal activation, the Hellbore may 'launch' itself and is then removed off-table. The Hellbore does not scatter when it emerges from the ground provided the launcher is still on the table and has LoS to the exit-point, otherwise the Hellbore scatters 3D6 from that point. Once it returns, the Hellbore has no movement, but may activate to fire or assault etc. It may claim or contest objectives as usual.
• If the Hellbore does not 'launch' in turn #1, it is treated like any other WE transport and may not be used to tunnel for the remainder of the game.
• The Hellbore critical is that the launcher is destroyed if it is still being transported 'outside', otherwise it is (whatever the usual one is)

Once I'm done herding my cats.

I guess we need to figure out if the community has a need/want to keep them on the board, and if so to what extent, unit/terrain/marker?

Where's Moscovian? I think we need a poll. He's good at those.

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Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17