Seems like an unnecessary variation on Invulnerable Save.

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You can't factor CC into those stats, but how often do you expect every tank in the formation to get caught in CC? Terminators and air assaults can probably do it, but not much else. Given that they have a 3+ MW FF, if even one of them isn't caught in CC they're deadly. This is not a formation that's weak in engagements to anything other than terminators, and EVERYTHING is weak in engagements to terminators.

Also, it's a definite no from me for any special rule that only applies to a single unit.

Why isn't an invulnerable save good enough? It makes it tougher than a normal land raider, and surely that's the point?

Right, and you bitched and moaned about it. As have several others in the group regarding 4+RA predominance. That regular AT shots are for the most part pointless, and the need for MW and TK attacks escalates. So the answer is to up the ante and make a bestest one?

When BlackLegion, arguably the biggest proponent for direct 40K conversion on the forums, says this...

...maybe abstracting things a little is the key.

I really liked the idea madd0ct0r had. Have it as a singular replace, or single addition to, a Land Raider formation. That way excesses get curbed by the requirement of the rest of the formation. It's not like people argue for Hunter formations. If the Achilles must be had (and I still don't think it's necessary), that's the way to have it.

Morgan Vening

(removed possibly misleading stats)

Orks in Landas.
Eldar in Vampire.
Rough Riders.
Etc.


Guard don't give a damn for MW FF they'll just roll over you with static combat resolution.
Orks will do the same, just with Grots too.
Eldar might even out-firefight you.

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I agree. FF3+ MW hits strikes me as way overpowered. FF4+ with MW is more appropriate. A formation of four dropping out of a Landing Craft to hose a target formation will do some significant damage up close, especially if partnered with Terminators.

they wont be able to out of a landing craft though... they're not in the IF list

Truuuuue. I s'pose I didn't really have the IF list only in mind.

Seriosly. Calm down and take a breath. I never once complained about AMTL RA saves. I think you have me mistaken with others in regards to the Knight World list. Although I have reservations on the troops, I have offered for you to play it against me which you have not. So pretty much step back and take a breath dude. Geez.



In a game where we have Eldar running around with 3+ save to everything, and Necrons running around with Living Metal, I think it is very hypocritical for the community to not consider something over and beyond Invulnerable Save.

Then again, I am sure if someone else suggested it, then it may have been taken a little more seriously.

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Playtest. Demonstrate Inv. Save is not enough.


And don't do this.

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Huh? 3+ save is significantly worse than even a 4+ reinforced save, and living metal is worse than 3+ reinforced, as shown above.



There's no need to take things personally. I never pay any attention to who posts ideas.

I was referring to the idea of :
Ferromantic Armour: The unit is considered to always have a Reinforced Armour save. This cannot be taken away by weapon abilities. (this as a proposal for the Achilles to replace Reinforced Armour)

Both 4+ saves vs normal attacks - standard
Both 4+ saves vs Lance attacks - a change representative of the increased toughness
One 4+ save vs Macro Weapons - Standard
One 4+ save vs TK attacks - a change representative of the increased toughness

How does that stack up?

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I don't like special rules, much less special rules for a single unit in a single list.

4+ RA is strong enough, an inv. save if the ferromantic really is to be represented in epic, and 4+ FF with those MW melta should do it. 3+ MW and specially 3+ RA look way over the top to me.

Looks to me like it's a unique special rule for a single unit... is this tank really as critically important to the army list as Grots are to the Orks?

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I just do not believe 4+ RA and INV Save is representative of what this tank is supposed to do. Simple as that.

I guess I will play it with those stats though.

Mud Marines need something to help push them along and something like the Achilles was a strong contender for this role. You really do not even have to playtest it. It is evident that the Ferromantic will only play a part 16% of the time when needed which is a far cry in how much tougher it is to a standard Land Raider. Even if it is not totally representative of the 40K stats, it should have something a little bit more.

Also it loses out on the Transport capacity. That alone should highlight that it has something more to offer. So FF3+ is where I am leaning towards to at least get these as an option above a standard Land Raider choice.

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