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What cost should War Walkers be?
- 200pts for a formation of 6 34%  34%  [ 16 ]
- 35pts each for a formation of 4-6 6%  6%  [ 3 ]
- 150pts for a formation of 4, with an upgrade option of 1-2 units at 25pts each 47%  47%  [ 22 ]
- No opinion, but I do like to vote! 13%  13%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 47

War Walker Cost

 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:53 am 
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Why is 3 a holy number? 3 is more a holy number for Imperial forces.

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 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:58 am 
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Bugger knows why it is, but it is.

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 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:03 am 
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Apart from HQ choices it is 3 or multiples of 3 in the Wh40k FOC :D

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 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:37 am 
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Lsrwolf wrote:
I'd take 4 groups of 4 every time, because I have 16 walkers and four of them feel left out everytime now.

Although I really like the idea of being able to swap them out with a ranger at no cost. That makes a ton more sense.

Alaitoc list already does this kinda of...


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 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:15 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Lsrwolf, are you suggesting a modified formation something like:-

"Scouts"
4x Rangers @100pts or 4x War Walkers @ 150pts . . . . . . . upgrade 0-4 Rangers or Warwalkers @25pts each

It is an interesting idea, but given the option I suspect that you will find the formations will actually work better separately rather than combined. Rangers will slow down the Walkers, while Walkers will make the Rangers more fragile by allowing AT fire to target them as well (and removing the OW cover save). You can try it if you like though, and tell us what happens.

Final thought; is it 'fluffy'?


I much prefer this idea.

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 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:00 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Final thought; is it 'fluffy'?

Other than for Alaitoc, I don't see it being "fluffy" at all... Rangers are Outcasts, for the most part, while War Walker pilots are normal Guardians, following the Eldar Path... most Farseers probably wouldn't want their Guardians listening to the wild tales of the Rangers while they're out alone in the field.

For Alaitoc, whose forces are more integrated with their Rangers, I see it as being fine.


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 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:19 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
Again, that is *not* min-maxing, it's point use efficiency

If the only formation size ever getting selected is the 150pt 4-unit formation, then it's min/maxing.

That's *still* not min-maxing, that's price optimization; a certain configuration for a formation that's "best for its points" is not min-maxing. Taking an odd number of Razorbacks to get a "spare" Rhino slot is not min-maxing, it's formation optimization. Min-maxing is taking the minimun amout/value of mandatory/crap formations, to get the maximum amount/value of "good" formations.

An example of "min-maxing" would be taking the minimum number of base, unupgraded Guardian formations with the expresss intent of maximizing the of number "better" formations one could get with the rest of your points.

In fact, taking the minimum value of formations to maximize the *number* of formations is not actually min-maxing, it's activation optimizing.

Min-maxing


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 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:28 am 
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Here I think you could argue both cases - min maxing in this case would be to take Guardians and War Walkers, or 600 pts for 4x formations. In a 3000 point army you could field 5x Guardians and 15x War Walker formations(4 units), but I really doubt it would be competitive because of the total lack of Eldar armour - but do try it for a laugh ;)


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 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:47 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Here I think you could argue both cases - min maxing in this case would be to take Guardians and War Walkers, or 600 pts for 4x formations. In a 3000 point army you could field 5x Guardians and 15x War Walker formations(4 units), but I really doubt it would be competitive because of the total lack of Eldar armour - but do try it for a laugh ;)

Hilarious example, but the reason that's not min-maxing is because the army will most likely perform crappily (is that even a word?! *laugh*); the intent of min-maxing is to gain a design-unintented or metagame advantage over taking a "balanced" army: that the advantages of the maximizing more than overcome the disadvantages of the mininizing. That's not a certainty with the Guardian and War Walker army.

A role-playing example is spending no points on Charisma to get a higher Strength, because you know, as a player, that you can use your own ability to speak well to influence things in game which your character shouldn't be able to, while still relying on the game mechanical benefits a higher Strength gives you in combat; minimizing the Charisma has no true cost in actual play in the end.

Another aspect of min-maxing is that many consider it both unfluffy and unsportsmanlike; always taking the "best priced formation for the points" does not, necessarily, run afoul of either of those two criticisms and is *not* min-maxing.


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 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:23 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Lsrwolf, are you suggesting a modified formation something like:-

"Scouts"
4x Rangers @100pts or 4x War Walkers @ 150pts . . . . . . . upgrade 0-4 Rangers or Warwalkers @25pts each

It is an interesting idea, but given the option I suspect that you will find the formations will actually work better separately rather than combined. Rangers will slow down the Walkers, while Walkers will make the Rangers more fragile by allowing AT fire to target them as well (and removing the OW cover save). You can try it if you like though, and tell us what happens.

Final thought; is it 'fluffy'?


No, more like:
"Scouts"
4x Rangers @100pts . . . . . . . add 1-4 Rangers or Warwalkers @25pts each.

plus these renegades could not care less about the mother craftworld's freakish obsession with the number 3.

8-)

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 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:48 am 
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Again that basically the Trademark Formation of Alaitoc...


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 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:04 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:
Why is 3 a holy number? 3 is more a holy number for Imperial forces.

I don't think it's actually in any books or anything, it was merely an early design parameter Jervis had for the Eldar in EPIC, but it's long since gone by the wayside... seven Guardians and one Farseer or eight Aspect Warrior units in the core formations puts it to rest.


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 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:25 am 
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The question which needs to be answered, to my mind, is the following: Is there anything actually seriously wrong with War Walker squadrons in terms of how they are currently structured? If the answer is 'no', which I believe it is, then I don't really see the need to change anything.

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 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:09 pm 
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I think Chroma has decided to leave Biel-tan alone while tinkering with the other craft worlds - which is fine with me.

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 Post subject: Re: War Walker Cost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:51 am 
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Holy numbers have more to do with blister sizes than design decisions anyway.


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