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Imperial Fists Development 2

 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:54 pm 
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That wasn't the point. RBs have similar weapons fits, which Speeders do not.

That said, Tarantulas do look a little overpriced at your current rates. This is part of why I went with infantry, mobile, activation Tarantulas.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:21 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
That said, Tarantulas do look a little overpriced at your current rates. This is part of why I went with infantry, mobile, activation Tarantulas.


I do like Infantry, Mobile, Activations.

Mainly the Infantry part!


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:52 am 
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Tarantulas in this list will remain static while I develop the list to a competitive standard (he's hoping)

At present movement and activations are the main issues, yet my play style and strategy (lack thereof) has been seriously flawed as well.

- I am going to add in Land Speeders as I see them operating throughout bombed out areas with trenches and mines - more-so than bikes for instance.
- I am going to lower the cost of the Tarantulas and possibly the Helios as well.
- I am considering adding in standard Land Raiders however I will attempt some more games first to see if the Vindicators can do the AT work for the list

Any of the above will assist the competitive nature of the list. If I have to add or take small things at a time then I will do that and remain patient. Although I have some (a lot) of crappy games, overall I do enjoy tweaking it after every few games :)

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:10 am 
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Version updated to V0.7 on front page

Changes:
- Land Speeders added
- Typhoon and Tornado Upgrade added
- Tarantula price drop to 125 points
- Hyperios platform drop to 125 points
- Commander Upgrade added to all ground based Formations
- Thunderfire Upgrade dropped to +50 points

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:46 am 
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While discussing viable options and ways to encourage formation types, Morgan (again) came up with a unique idea that I think is worth considering.

Firstly, the reason
- Terminators are not normally bought with Transport Land Raiders - you just do not see it - too expensive
- Terminators do not get their transport/teleport cost back with the purchase on Land Raiders
- 600+ points of terminators in Land Raiders is not as efficient as the same cost in a Reaver Titan

Possible variant Solution
- Mechanised Terminators - 2x Terminators and 2x Land Raiders: 325 points

While at first I cringed at the suggestion, the more I look at it, the more I like it;
1. You have the AT support with the CC element of the terminators.
2. It is not so much of a points sink
3. the numbers are more in line with what one would expect to see on a battlefield (as opposed to 20-40 Terminators every game)
4. It is viable selection for a list such as this

So what are people's thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:10 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
Possible variant Solution
- Mechanised Terminators - 2x Terminators and 2x Land Raiders: 325 points

So what are people's thoughts?


Odd but maybe. Or...

Mech Terminators Formation 450
4x Terminators
2x Land Raider Crusaders

Or...

200 points
2x Terminators
1x LRC

Or...

350
3x Terminators
1x LR
1x LRC


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:22 pm 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
200 points
2x Terminators
1x LRC


Oh stop it! You are such a tease :D

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:29 pm 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Mech Terminators Formation 450
4x Terminators
2x Land Raider Crusaders


My initial problem was getting back the Teleport cost on the Land Raiders. This does seem to do it as a formation - the cost is still a major sink - yet viable - more-so than the current set up. It probably does need to be costed at 475 however.
- It also does go against the whole "the numbers are more in line with what one would expect to see on a battlefield (as opposed to 20-40 Terminators every game)" that I wrote out.

For some reason, I really do like the 325 point option proposed. It also brings in the standard Land Raider fire power that I am looking for - albeit on a smaller scale.

Happy to be considering either of the above options at this stage to encourage the use of a mud-marine Terminator formation as an addition to the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:43 am 
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Hmmm. Tough crowd. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:00 pm 
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Played a game tonight vs AMTL.

Firstly: AMTL suck dogs balls - big time. I have no interest in playing against an AMTL force again without prior knowledge so as I can take significant deep strike.

Lists Takens

Imperial Fists
Fortified Positions
Fortified Positions
Tarantulas
Tarantulas
Hyperios Platforms
Land Speeders + Typhoon
Land Speeders + Librarian
Tacticals + Crusaders + 2xVindicators + Librarian
Tacticals + Crusaders + SC
Whirlwinds + Hunter
Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts
Land Raider Achilles


AMTL
Reaver + Carapace Multi Lasers + 2x Quake Cannons + Carapace Landing Pad + Princeps
Reaver + Carapace Multi Lasers + 2xTurbo Laser Destructor + Vulcan Mega Bolter + Princeps
Reaver + Carapace Multi Lasers + 2xVolcano Cannon + Vulcan Mega Bolter + Legate
Warhound + Turbo Laser Destructor + Plasma Blast Guns
Warhound + Vulcan Mega Bolter + Plasma Blast Guns
Thunderbolts

====================

Apart from the game sucking:
- The addition of the Land Speeders was a boon to the competitive aspect of the list - definitely required
- The Land Raider Achilles were under-performers (seriously considerring replacing these with standard Land Raiders)
- Reduced cost on Tarrantulas appeared to be appropriate
- Reduced cost on the Hyperios appeared to be appropriate
- Scouts are really struggling to be seen as a serious choice. At 200 points, land speeders are a better choice.


Ideas to consider
1. Concept of Tarantulas being expendable (possibly even remove ATSKNF)
2. Concept of the Bastian style fortification in place of Tarantulas + Fortifications
3. Hyperios Command Platform: needed or can it be abstracted at an Epic level?
4. Adjust Scouts to normal scouts (125 points) with possible upgrade of Sniper for the entire formation (+75 points)
OR
5. Reduce Scouts all with Sniper to 175 points as a formation

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:25 pm 
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Quote:
AMTL suck dogs balls - big time. I have no interest in playing against an AMTL force again without prior knowledge so as I can take significant deep strike.

From looking at your army list, it is heavily biased towards AP, and I wouldn't expect it to do well against any kind of AV-heavy or WE-heavy army.

Quote:
- The Land Raider Achilles were under-performers (seriously considerring replacing these with standard Land Raiders)


I cannot see how a formation of units that cost 325pts, have MW shooting, MWFF4+, speed 25cm, and RA4+ can under-perform. Those are simply amazing stats.

Frankly, it looks like you met a Titan Legion with a list optimised for AP duty, and got smacked down.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:55 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
Firstly: AMTL suck dogs balls - big time. I have no interest in playing against an AMTL force again without prior knowledge so as I can take significant deep strike.


Maybe you were the one sucking...uhh ya ::) ;)

Have we figured out if this a Defensive or Offensives List?

Land Raiders (All Variant Types Crusader, Achilles, Ares etc..) should a Key feature if this was a Siege Breaking Offensive List. But if the style is Defense, then I would only have limited Standard Land Raiders.

I like Sniper Scouts and I don't think there should be a Basic Scout Option. Don't really need to that much Scouting ahead when your laying a Siege. But limited morale breaking/Assassinate Commander thing would be helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:25 pm 
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Quote:
I cannot see how a formation of units that cost 325pts, have MW shooting, MWFF4+, speed 25cm, and RA4+ can under-perform. Those are simply amazing stats.


I see you failed to note that the MW was 15cm range :) It may as well be a TK attack for what it is.

I will take these guys again, however these are my initial findings. They may do a lot better against another army, however the fact remains, you are doubling most times to use this formation, and at that rate, the Thunderfire cannon is pretty much useless, as is anything needing to be shot at over 15cm away.

Quote:
Maybe you were the one sucking...uhh ya


You are pretty much correct. No argument there. :)

I have a lot to learn strategy wise. As Morgan stated however, I would like to see a seasoned player actually lose a game with an AMTL list. I am not going to get carried away with talking AMTL here. Fact is, no-one likes it in our group and Morgan probably had less fun playing it than I had removing troops all night (6BP MW - Bah!).

That is the greatest problem with list development however; making sure decisions are not skewed based on extreme scenario playtests. Hence why I try to look at each game objectively, and not make huge design changes - I am at least prepared to test something to a point of satisfaction beyond the one game.

Quote:
I like Sniper Scouts


As do I. I think the 175 point costing is appropriate to make them a viable choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:40 pm 
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Quote:
I think the 175 point costing is appropriate to make them a viable choice.

Likely too cheap.
Quote:
I would like to see a seasoned player actually lose a game with an AMTL list.

Happens a fair bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Imperial Fists Development 2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:41 pm 
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Quote:
Have we figured out if this a Defensive or Offensives List?


Are you seriously asking this? Try making a force or two up from the list and see which way it is weighted.

I am sure that you will find the list lends itself more to the defensive side - yet is not solely relegated to this.

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