It is creating a new list-specific special rule to achieve the same thing as an already-existing special rule.

This is a slippery slope that starts with good intentions and ends with a hundred lists all with very slightly different rules doing roughly the same thing.

That's not elegant, that's 40k.

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Taking this in mind, and I know that I am a little offtrack - however I still think it is relevant, would you consider the World Eaters Blood Rage rule to replace the Blood Angels Red Thirst then?

Afterall, if we are going to stop the "slippery slope", I see no better place to start.

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I certainly think that both lists should use the same rule, and if there was an offical rule, "aggressive behaviour" or whatever in multiple lists, including official ones, they should defnitely both use it.

As there isn't an official rule, or a consensus rule used by multiple lists then the two list developers should work in conjunction to come up with a single rule acceptable to both.



Back on topic, can we please test it using the official fortification placement rules, and only if we find it's a problem, try something different? It's ALWAYS better to aim for underpowered first then ramp up slowly, as well as being better to cut down on unnecessary special rules.

Note that the "superior marine tactics" are already represented by them getting much better fortifications than the Guard do...

What Zombo said. If they are functionally identical, or nearly so, then a generic special rule should be worked up.

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heartily agree. I think we should take a look across all lists and see about adding a few generic special rules and remove some from the lists themselves.
There are too much special rules around by quite a wide margin IMO.

Apparently no one can make even a codex marine chapter without a few special rules of his own, that makes me grumpy.

I have to say I'm with E&C and Zombo on this one. It's sort of ... odd. Why would you set up an extensive fortified position in a place you're not going to defend long term?

I don't see much of a strategic advantage. The most you're going to get out of it is a better field of fire for the firebase and the downside is that the formation cannot stay in the fortifications and hold the objective. Maybe that's a reasonable tradeoff, but it begs the question of why do it.

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Also, I have been a proponent of lining up the WE and BA "berzerker" rules for a while, so get on that.

Then if we are going to do this, I would also like to tackle the most recent example of the publication that Mosc is putting together where the Resolute skill is the same as the Indomitable skill used for the Death Guard.

It just appears daft to me that the same rule is being used in two lists under two different names. Any feedback given on the subject seems to fall on deaf ears.

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Going into playtests, I will play with the following changes:

- Vindicators will be 4 Vindicators for 225 points. They will have upgrades of Vindicators and Hunter

The 4 or 8 selections are quite out of place in the list, so agreeing with feedback here and bringing these back in line with the other formations

Firebase and Mine selections will follow the rules under Siege fortification placement for play tests as well (although I still have reservations).

I will update the list soon-ish with the Vindicator change

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With the latest game going and making quite a few lists up for this force, I am looking at making the following changes:

1. Thunderfire Defence Battery : Too expensive. Looking to drop this formation to 225 or 250 points.
2. Assault Marines - As SK has pointed out, these appear to be too expensive. Options as I see it are drop to 150 points, or increase formation size.
3. Thunderfire Upgrade - Reduce to 50 points per unit


Concerns:
- Vindicators - I still think they are a little expensive at 4 for 225 points (seeing that they are 35 points in the Black Legion List) - I could reduce the per-unit cost and up the numbers yet this could be counter-intuitive for making up a competative list. Any other ideas?

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I'd go cheaper before increasing formation size. Another option might be turning them into an upgrade.

EDIT: I also think foot assault Marines would make a lot of sense - and the Raven Guard list already has them.

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I have nothing against this. My only question is what does it add to the list?

Currently I have Tacticals in there (for everything a Tac Marine does) and Assault Marines to handle the 'cheap' move aspect. What would Mudmen Assaults Marines add to the list that would justify yet another troop type?

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Please explain? Are we talking about mixed formations again?

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Well, foot assault troops make more sense as a defensive, entrenched force.



I'd say pick one or the other. However, they do fit better with the whole "slow-moving defensive" feel, IMO.



Basically. Add X Assault Bases for +Y.

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Try 250.

I'd be fine with a drop of 25pts.
Being a "codex adherent" chapter, this theme is subtly reinforced if you keep the standard formation sizes.


Disagreed, it'd notably overshadow the Vindicator at that price (Similar role, but much better at it) unless you also make Vindicators 2 for 75pts.



You could just drop the formation cost to 200pts.

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The Imperial Fists aren't known Assault Marine fanatics like the Raven Guard are. Let them keep their special thing to themselves.

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