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It'll need re-phrasing to insert a comma at that point as currently it would be grammatically incorrect to do so.

Could put one after "initiative roll" and stay grammatically correct. Also a "will" could go in there to help the sentence flow better.

ala:

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Hmm on a side note i can see Black Templars as perfect candidates to being Aggressive too

And as both rules are special abilities now instead of an army rule it could be applied to the Khorne Berzerkers unit throughout all lists who uses Khoren Berzerkers, etc.

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I, personally, share neal's trepidation about possible exploitability. Seriously, I can come up with ways to abuse that that make no sense, and I'm not even good.

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I really think the two should be combined into one rule.

It pretty much will be (and is) in the World Eaters. The downside was important against the benefit of the charge. Hence why it was 1 rule from the start - that seems to have been lost somewhere along these discussions.

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Combine it into one thing called Blood-Thirsty and things are pretty good. I'd recommend SOME kind of penalty for not actually getting guys into B2B, to discourage gaminess, but otherwise it should be fine that way, IMO.

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The rule initially was an auto charge with a BM attained if it was a failed action. That was seen as too powerful.

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Failed action will suck as it is. I'd just recommend a blast marker or two for NOT getting the guys into base contact if you succeed on the engage action. Would seem to represent 'reality' fairly well.

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If that was the case the rule is highly abusable by the opponent as getting units into BtB is not all that easy. In effect, the formation would be targeted for a reverse clipping assault.

It really does not work in my mind.

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Except that the rule doesn't apply unless it's possible to get them into B2B, as I understand it. Thus, you take the penalty if you want to, not otherwise.

EDIT: And that assumes that taking advantage of your opponent being blood-crazed maniacs would be inappropriate...

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oh. I understood your rule to be everyone with [insert special rule] needing to reach base contact.

Are you including the -1 for other actions as well or just the BM for no btb?

I still think the BM for no btb is pterry harsh.

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I'd say include the -1, and add the BM if, say, less than half of those who CAN reach B2B do.

If you think that's harsh, fair enough, but there definitely should be SOME consequence for not actually reaching B2B with an ability that is supposed to try to make you reach B2B.

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Not having units reach btb (which is hard in iself) and giving penalties for it is really harsh.

I understand you are trying to account for the savvy player who uses a Charge to do a double action, however that rule penalises those attempting to keep by the rule as well for no other purpose than "because".

With FF combat being so effective in games, I cannot believe that we would penalise CC combat. It just does not make sense.

All I have to go with is my experiences. I have played with the version of the "Red Thirst" rule and found it viable and a detriment. On being told it was too powerful, I devised this rule while attempting to not make a convoluted ruleset about how it works. Now that we have reached some type of parity, I would like to play the rules (as both rules and not 2 seperate rules) to really judge it's effectiveness.

The +1 to engage needs to go with the -1 penalty. The boon without the penalty should see a boost in unit costs - then again, why would the rule exist on it's own?.

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