I'm still curious why you don't need a spaceship in order to use Teleport.

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If I go to a tiered structure, then Terminators would be in support.

It is not the number of terminators taken that I have an issue with, it is the lack of other INF that bothers me.
If you had to buy a Core INF formation to purchase a Terminator formation, then my issue is appeased. The tiered structure would do this.

I have no problem with Teleporting Terminators. Even the Emperor teleported while on the defence. Sometimes you have to attack to assist the defence and that is what the termies are for - so sorry, no discount there. They have teleport and you use it, or you don't, simple as that. It works well this way for a list that may have trouble getting to an opponents blitz or BTS. They are also perfect for breaking an opponent's advance where the defence is looking to push back.

I do want to see what other lists people make as I understand Tim's one is extreme.

Regarding offence and defence - I am not going to go into it as it will be a revolving debate. I really envision what I remember from 'Storm of Iron' and I will revisit that novel for ideas. People should also look at 'Sons of Dorn' to see the concept I am going for in the list.

Regarding other like discussions: There are no Thunderhawk or Landingship transports so any ideas from the Vanilla list are hopefully dispelled. No dreads with Terminators was an oversight. However their role in this list is quite different no doubt.

Other ideas: Things that come to mind are troops that 'appear' through tunnel networks. Its a stretch but something that could be interesting to play with - who knows. I also still think Trenches should still play a part for cover purposes, yet let's see how the other discussions go for now.

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The Emperor had the facilities of the Imperial palace to work with. Field fortifications do not seem likely to be as well equipped.

Troops appearing through tunnel networks sounds a lot like Drop Pods. Seems a little redundant.

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Trapping/Leading enemy troops in a bottleneck to remove the disadvantage of low numbers would be the Space Marine way.

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Yes. And the current list allows for this if I can find a way for the player to play with the toys I am giving him/her.

That is the real dilemna. I will make such armies up, but that is just me. At a tournament level, I am not so sure that will be the case with the current list. The special rule I advised of garrisoning to Firebases instead of objectives will no doubt be an incentive.

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The first one would require 4 Land Raiders (Terminators take up 2 slots each). The second one would need a revision of the Crusader, regarding Transport slots. At the moment, you can't mix Terminators and standard Infantry in a Crusader, because it's unnecessary.

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Your commitment is lacking



Replacing objectives does nothing to encourage the firebase - especially when the opponent is placing those objectives on table edges.



Too early in development to make such a decision methinks



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Again, too early in development. Activations are something the list is going to need. No use cutting the only thing that will keep them in a game at this point.

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I really should have posted some more details on my choices.

With the three terminator list I would probably take 2 formations of Thunderhammers & 1 normal formation. Yes there is the real treat of coming up against a heavy skimmer force, but you just use the Thunderhammers to keep people in their transports and hit the formation with the remaining normal terminators. Note this is a one off big push for the BTS but with 2 Chaplains I would expect to win. The only time this doesn't work is when you face a Fearless Skimming BTS & how many of these do we have?

Ginger - this list doesn't have transporting Thunderhawks or Landingcraft so the terminators either teleport or walk around on foot.

I would support a tiered list as this will help focus the list for a defensive feel. I would throw into the pot the idea of Tacticals @ 300pts but automatically include Firebases with them. Do the same with Devastators and have these two formations as the core, Whirlwinds & Thunderers could also be added with a 1-1 core to support ratio adopted. Then give transport options back to the terminators and scouts to give counter attacking ability to the list. If teleporting is going to be a problem (and it might still be) force terminators to have transports in their cost with the option to take them or not. However, Frogbear you have an idea of where you want the list to go if this doesn't fit then feel free to drop the lot.

Well firstly it does not meet Codex it seems so that is where that one stops

However, terminators in standard formations has shown in the past to have issues, either with Transports or upgrades - then again this was dependent on the list. Cannot remember specifics but it does not work with every list. I think your idea is workable. Character goes in terminator armour every time I am guessing Just not appropriate for a Codex list.

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If this list is to represent a defensive siege list would giving Tacticals the walker ability give them a little more flavour (for the same reasons it was given to the sappers in the IG siege list).

It will differentiate them from normal Tacticals and hopefully improve their worth in the list.

I may be missing something here - hence why I am asking. What use is Walker on INF? Is it merely for minefields?

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From making this list, I realize there is one question that really needs to be answered by the Marine AC and that is:

What are the strictures for a Marine list to be Codex?

Without this, I (and others it seems) do not really know the boundaries for formations.

Example: Is a formations of 4 Tacticals and 2 Devs (20 men and 10 men respectively) Codex? If not, why not?

In a discussion last night, all I could find on Codex was this:
- The Codex states that a Space Marine Chapter should be split into 10 companies of 100 Marines each
- A Codex Chapter of Space Marines tends to follow the strict organisation and doctrines as laid in the Codex Astartes.

1. So where is the line drawn that stops a chapter such as Ultramarines and Imperial Fists being Codex?
2. What variations are acceptable to remain Codex (example: Dark Angels)?
3. What is the distinction between full Codex and partial Codex? Where is that line drawn?
4. Does Codex also effect vehicle upgrades and what is available?

and after all of this, when it is explained how Ultramarines are the quintessential example of Codex, please explain the existance of the Honour Guard being Codex

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