This is a slight update to 1.0f. No big changes.

Armoury formation to 150
Demi-Company Devastators to 100
Demi-Company Assault to 50
Demi-Company 'Both' removed
Land Raider Terminus to 100
Armoured Support reduced to two vehicles and prices brought closer to the Scions of Iron
Dreadnought formation to 225
Bike formation now any combination of Attack Bikes or Bikes

EDIT:

Well, the assorted discussion about air assaulting got me thinking about the Apocrypha of Skaros. I came to the realization I wasn't entirely happy. Dammit, I wanted to be able to take Thunderhawks if I wanted to. The whole point of the list originally had been to do that, and not being able to do that made me feel like I'd lost my way.

So I looked at the list, and an idea struck me: what if I took out everything I didn't really like and put Thunderhawks back in?

So I did.

The Apocrypha of Skaros is meant to serve as a more ground-focused version of the basic Space Marine list - heavy on infantry and vehicle formations, with the possibility of some limited Titan or Space Marine aircraft support. It provides the potential for larger formations and uses the Damocles and Prometheus variant Land Raiders to (hopefully) help coordinate them, while the Land Raider Terminus serves to provide some anti-Titan punch (again, hopefully) and the Tarantula MkIs serve as a source of moderately cheap, moderately expendable firepower and area security.

I think the list hearkens somewhat back to the feel of Space Marine and earlier Epic editions, and so the only newer equipment I've retained are Land Raider and Rhino variants (which mesh decently enough in aesthetic, IMO).

Hopefully, it will be more focused, more appealing, and a little less schizophrenic than its predecessor.

Enjoy. Please tell me what you think.



* * *

Changes as compared to the basic Codex Astartes Space Marine list:

Formations:
Dreadnought Formation and Armoury Formation (Tarantulas) added.
Thunderhawk CAS and Thunderhawk SB added to Allies.
Assault Formation, Scout Formation, Landing Craft, and Spaceships removed.
Thunderhawk Gunship moved to allies.
Thunderbolts, Marauders and Individual Warhounds removed from allies.

Units:
Scouts removed.
Land Raider Prometheus added.
Damocles Command Rhino, Land Raider Terminus, and Tarantula Mk I (HB and LC variants) created.
Thunderhawk variants added.

Overall:
Various points adjusted and Allies percentage set to 25%.
Several upgrades added to allow more diversity and the possibility of relatively large Tactical formations. The Razorback upgrade has been amended to make Razorback spam a little less pronounced.

* * *

Changes from 1.0e->1.0f
Assault Formation eliminated.
Terminators +25 points
Scout Formation eliminated.
Predator formation now four Destructors, Predators option added. Predator formation costs 225 points.
Demi-Company upgrade reworded for clarity
Fire Support option eliminated
Land Speeder Tempest removed from Land Speeders option
Predators option created - upgrades pairs of Destructors to Annihilators.
Teleport option -25 points

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Explanation of Changes as compared to the Codex Astartes:
Dreadnought Formation - Dreadnought formations have been sorely lacking. This seems a good place for them, since the list is focused more on the ground.

Armoury Formations - Tarantulas make a lot of sense in a Space Marine army. They're cheap, expendable in a way that Space Marines are not, and carry a decent amount of firepower for their size. A bit of fluff magic can explain any particular idiosyncracies their appearance creates.

Thunderhawk CAS and Thunderhawk SB added to Allies - Thunderhawks are an iconic Space Marine unit, and a good Space Marine list should try to include them. The presence of the CAS and SB variants allows the Space Marines the presence of Thunderhawks without requiring that they Air Assault.

Assault Formation - Independent Assault formations have never entirely made sense in Epic as anything other than Thunderhawk loads. They're small, they're fragile, and they don't have any capability at shooting. Them running around the battlefield as an independent formation never seemed to entirely make sense. So now they're an upgrade for Tacticals.

Scout Formation - Eliminated for several reasons. First, Scouts often seemed to be taken in quantity for their abilities at increasing a Space Marine army's quantity of activations at minimal cost. This seems out-of-keeping with the nature of Scouts in the Chapter - they're the future, and they're also not particularly common. Not rare, but one should not see almost half the Chapter's scouts in a run-of-the-mill engagement. Secondly, Scouts in Rhinos makes no sense. They're sneaky. Rhinos are emphatically not. I could give them Land Speeder Storms (and did in 1.0e), but I wanted a more focused version of the list - and Land Speeder Storms jarred with the list's older-school feel - leaving them out helped maintain focus. Finally, I hate the models. I hate them. I hate them so, so, so much. They're taller than Space Marines! Who did that?

Landing Craft and Spaceships - If the idea is to encourage a heavier ground presence, the removal of these seems a good step.

Thunderhawk Gunship moved to allies - Thunderhawk Gunships are relatively uncommon within Space Marine Chapters. They should not be part of the normal complement of the arsenal, for all their iconic status.

Thunderbolts, Marauders and Individual Warhounds removed from allies - Individual Warhounds were removed in part because they are described as working in tandem far more often than as working individually, and in part because Space Marine armies seem quite reliant on them. Thunderbolts and Marauders were removed in order to move focus toward Space Marine aircraft - and because Thunderbolts are a virtually unbeatable deal at 150 points in a Space Marine list.

Units:
Land Raider Prometheus added - the Land Raider Prometheus should hopefully make it easier to coordinate ground assaults, which the Apocrypha will be more reliant on.
Damocles Command Rhino, Land Raider Terminus, and Tarantula Mk I (HB and LC variants) created - The Damocles was created to help supplement the Damocles and to help deal with the Space Marines occasional difficutly with blast markers. While it obviously cannot eliminate such difficulties, it can help mitigate them. The Terminus will hopefully help compensate for the lost Warhound by adding some AT punch.

Overall:
Various points adjusted and Allies percentage set to 25% - With allies at 33%, the focus of a Space Marine army seems to become Titans on a not-infrequent basis. By moving Space Marine aircraft to allies and reducing the portion of an army which can be allies, Space Marine lists are forced to rely more on Space Marine assets and less on allies. Furthermore, Space Marines are relatively independent and standoffish in the fluff - it does not make sense that they would be as closely affiliated with the Navy and Mechanicus as the Imperial Guard.

Several upgrades added to allow more diversity and the possibility of relatively large Tactical formations - Larger formations help with the old school feel and provide one way of dealing with the difficulties a ground force faces.

* * *
Explanation of changes from 1.0e to 1.0f:


Changes from 1.0e->1.0f
Terminators +25 points - With the Thunderhawk back in the list, making it possible for Terminators to Air Assault in Thunderhawks for 25 points less than in the Codex list seemed self-defeating.
Predator formation now four Destructors, Predators option added. Predator formation costs 225 points - hopefully allows both kinds of Predators without difficulty. Should the current discussion around improving Destructor FF bear fruit, the cost will change and the option disappear.

Fire Support option eliminated - Focus and a lack of models make the Thunderfire relatively unnecessary.

Land Speeder Tempest removed from Land Speeders option - As went the Thunderfire, so too goes the Tempest. Its presence was not compelled. Its absence made things easier. I thank it for its sacrifice.

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Because the last few pages are a play reference as well as a unit list. I figured that if part of the list was going to be printed off, it would be that bit, and it would be convenient to have the special rule attached. That, and I had the space.



I am torn between two explanations:

1) I added it to help educate the world on how the Imperial Navy works.

2) I, too, am mortal, despite my godly appearance and nature, and completely forgot to remove it when I took out the Thunderbolts.

I think the second is the most likely, but I am inherently generous, and so cannot rule out the first...

Honestly, I forgot. I'll take it out once the mistakes reach sufficient critical mass to replace the file (I'm on another computer at the moment).



In regard to fixed numbers - because I'm not entirely persuaded that the two are equally valuable, and this keeps people from building big dedicated AP or AT units. Forced generalization makes them less useful, which helps keep the price down and helps keep them less important. Both of which are good things. Tarantulas are expendable tools, and I want them to be treated as such.



Eh? They have the ability to add two extras, I thought, no more. They have options in the hope that if they're not useful on their own, someone can find a way to make them so.



Because she doesn't know that as an emancipated woman, she can drive. I suggest you go remind her that she can both drive and vote now, for it is the twenty-first century.

I'm sure she'll be appreciative.

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See! It's working already.



Oh! I get the problem.

The "two" is part of the "Core Units" column, not part of the "Upgrades" column. It doesn't refer to Armoured Support at all.



I think you're probably right in regard to Hunters and Predators. However, Vindicators might work well with them. They're not hampered as much in speed, the flexible cannon should mesh well, and the tough armor on the Dreads might make it a little more practical to get the Vindicators close and the longer range guns make the formation more effective as it does so.



That nine unit formation would have a speed of 10cm and cost 375 points, though.

No Drop Podding, no. It seemed to simplify things in a good way.



Dude, in the thirties she was old-fashioned. At this point she's downright prehistoric.

[/quote]

Congratulations.

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Overall, I think Apocrypha has shifted from a more "Imperial Fists" style of infantry line ground-pounder to an "Iron Hands" style with Dreads, plentiful armor support and mechanized weaponry. Alternately, this could build a fast mech list, with a couple of mechanized Tac formations, armor and bike/armor formations for assaults.

I still like it, both ways.

=========

Devs seem to be lacking a good role in the list. For 25 points more I'd take the Tacs - slightly less firepower but better in every other way. For 25 points less I'd take the Pred Destructors (same comparison that's going on in the Pred Destructor thread - adjusted for FF and price). For the same price, Dreads (3 fire support/2 assault) look better in most ways. And with the large number of fire support upgrades available, a dedicated Dev formation may just not be needed in this list. This is fine. I'm just pointing out as an internal balance issue.

Bikes with armored support is cool. That's completely my kind of formation - Bikes + 2 Pred Destructors for 325.

I'm not sure about the LR pricing but I suppose it's worth testing. My concern is that with the cheaper price and cheaper Vindicators, a "Space Marine Armor Company" of 4 LRs, 3 Vindis and a Hunter is 25 points cheaper than Codex and has an extra Vindi. It's something to keep an eye on.

Ditto for the Preds on questionable but worth testing. Pred Destructors for 225 might be cheap enough to spam. As noted above, they look awfully good compared to Devs.

Tarantulas have a disconnect on pricing. In a formation they are 35 each. In the upgrade they are only 25. Some premium might be in order for a formation (speed consistency, activation count, etc.) but I have doubts it is +40% better. A Tarantula formation + upgrade (I know that's not allowed in the list, I'm just cobbing stuff together for comparison) would be 250 points. It is, however, worse than a 250 Dev formation in most ways. That would lead me to think that the price needs to come down, which, of course, would have to be applied to the formation.

I would suggest making the Lascannon Tarantulas 6+CC. They can still fire at point blank range and they may have some crew or something around (servitors or whatever).

Also, are Tarantulas going to be transportable? Discussions on movement and transport are in the Imperial Fists thread, so I won't recap them. Maybe a dedicated Tarantula thread is needed.

Air assault - I think you've shut this down except for Terminators and probably Dreadnoughts. Terminators come out the same as Codex (-50 Termies + 50 Thawk). Tacs are borderline in Codex, but they'd be 25 points more expensive in Apocrypha (-25 Tacs, +50 Thawk). Even Tacs with the Assault Marines from a Demi-company are 600 points compared to 550 for 2 Assault/Thawk in Codex. Devs are a good option in Codex, but they are 50 points more expensive so probably never worth it.

Assault Dreads are generally considered a good air assault upgrade. The Dread formation is 2 Assault/2 normal so that's not optimized. Compared to Terminators, they have a little over half the assault offense and 3/4 the toughness, which is close in a raw point consideration but doesn't have the hammer and the risk of losing the Thawk due to a loss is greater. With the more expensive Thawks, the main thing going for the Dread air assault is that it's only 450 for the package (200 for Dreads + 250 for Thawk) which is cheap for an air assault option. That might be worth it, but I think it will take testing to be sure.

Personally, I think that's a fine compromise in keeping with the style of the list. I'm just not sure it's what you intended based on your stated goals.

That's the sad bit about wives. They rarely appreciate (double entendre fully intentional)

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nealhunt:



Hmmm. It is a fair point.

I guess the obvious question is if Devastators are valuable as an upgrade to Tactical formations. If yes, then it's fine. If no, then there's a bit more of a problem. I mean, I want Devastators to be present. But so long as they're present I'm not as worried as I might be.



Moi aussi. It just looks like fun.



On the bright side, if it turns out to be too good, hey - at least it proves Vindicators can be useful.



They do, and it worries me a little.

If they go up to FF3+, that price is disappearing like a snowball in Hell.



Fair enough. I don't think they should go below 150, though. Making them too useful risks making them into a beautiful popcorn choice.



Seems not unreasonable.



I hadn't thought so. I was going to claim that their movement was an abstracted combination of old grav-lift versions, servitor muscle, and cheap cargo haulers.

I'd be a proponent of Rhinos if there was no other method of moving them (since I don't think immobile units have a particular place in Epic). Since I'm perfectly comfortable with old/extrapolated justifications for them having a bit of movement, I'd rather avoid making them more mobile than necessary.



This is slightly unfortunate, but something of an inevitable consequence. Really, Tacs in Thunderhawks make sense because, well, sometimes that's what's available. Epic, however, doesn't really limit that sort of thing (and it would be a massive change to the game if it began to do so, IMO). Thus, Terminators always being a superior choice makes a lot of sense.

I don't entirely mind Devs not being viable Air Assault choices - it doesn't entirely make sense to throw your fire support troops into the teeth of the enemy from a Gunship. I can see why you might do it under certain circumstances, but it definitely shouldn't be more common than throwing your Tacticals in.

One option which had occured to me would be to eliminate the Devastator formation and cut Tacticals to 250. They're fairly cheap that way, and it might be worth it to put a Tac formation with Assaults/a Dread/Devastators in a Thunderhawk under those circumstances. However, this obviously might make Tacticals too cheap. Your thoughts on that would be greatly appreciated.

Another option is to move the whole list to increment-ten for greater granularity, but that's not exactly my favorite.



The non-optimization is intentional (as I believe you remember ). Optimized Dread formations basically end up out-specializing the Terminators and Devastators due to the fact that they're inevitably cheaper than both but almost as good.

Testing's fine by me. I'm not unwilling to upcost, downcost, or muck about with the Dread formation to make it work better.

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SK: Have you given any thought to making this an Iron Hands list? Stylistically I think it fits fairly well. You could give the characters Reinforced Armor instead of Invulnerable to represent Terminator squad leaders and bionics upgrades and such. For vehicles with a character, RA could represent specialty armor upgrades unique to their "more metal = better" mentality.

====

Devs: I don't think the Dev upgrade is very attractive compared to the other upgrades available to the Tacs. If you want a mobile base of fire, I'd rather take a Razorback and some armor. You'd end up with extra transport capacity and more shots (though perhaps not quite as flexible) for about the same price. For a garrison, 2 Dreads is about the same but cheaper. I'd recommend +100.

Tacs + Devs might be a pretty good Thawk load for a land/shoot strategy, though. With them to land/shoot/support even a moderate assault becomes a serious hammer. They wouldn't be great in CC, but they are good enough to provide the option to hit a weak-CC target so that's some additional flexibility. At 700 for a 2xDev/Thawk load in Codex, 625 for 6 Tacs/2 Devs/Thawk (275+100+250) sounds about right to me.


Tacs: If you want to try 250, I suggest powergaming tests as a priority.

I think you'll find 250 points is too cheap because the formation can often be specialized to beat out the specialists, while keeping the flexibility advantage of Tacs For example, compare the fast attack formation we both like of 5 Bikes/2 Preds to Tacs + Assault (if you want CC) or Tacs + Pred (if you want firepower and FF) for the same cost. Tacs are better in every way except speed, with the only drawback being the inherent problems of Rhinos. Maybe the transport issue is enough but I just don't think it will be.

The problem is, I don't like the Iron Hands. I don't like their Primarch. I don't like their quirks. I don't like their attitude. I don't like their color scheme. I just don't like them. It's not particularly rational, but there it is.

* * *

Devastators: +100 seems good. I would also ask whether +50 for Assaults would seem reasonable as well (certainly, I think I'd rather two Devs for 100 than two Assaults for 75, and a Dreadnought for 50 than two Assault bases for 75). Six Tacs and two Assaults might also be an OK Thunderhawk load - not great (especially next to Terminators), but decent.

Tacs: While I see where you're coming from (and suspect it might be far more popular just to buy lots of Tactical formations than to upgrade them), they'd actually be 400 for Tacs and Preds vs. 350 for Bikes and Preds, wouldn't they?

EDIT: Other question - would Devs be unbalanced at 225? Because it's an obvious way to try to keep them competitivish as a choice.

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Iron Hands: Fair enough. They aren't my favorite, either. I just think it would work as a "counts as" list.


Tacs + Assault: Probably the best person to ask is E&C. Tacs + Assault is an option in the Blood Angel list, so he should have an idea of whether people are taking them. You could check batreps as well. I never took them in my armies, but that doesn't really fit my style. There is currently a 25 point difference in 6 Tacs + 2 Assaults (375 for BA versus 350 for Apocrypha), which is probably fine if they aren't being taken in the BA list. Spreading that to 50 points would make me cautious.

The other thing to consider is internal balance and how it looks against other assault/light firepower formations. Bikes + 2 Preds is 325/350. Tacs + Assaults (currently 350) have better FF, comparable ranged fire with better resistance to suppression, better CC due to overall numbers and more units. The downside is the transport issue.


Tacs: I agree that stripped down Tac formations are probably how they would end up being deployed due to activation count. I was just trying to make the comparisons as close in points and abilities as possible.


Tacs + 1 Pred versus Bikes + 2 Destructors, 325 for each. The Bikes are mostly assault and the Preds are mostly for BMs and support fire, so FF4+ is preferred over Annihilators' better firepower.

Now that I'm thinking it through in more detail it's not quite as clear cut as I first thought. FF and CC is comparable. Firepower favors the Tacs, imho. Transport issues are the downside, as always. So, probably okay either way in this case.


Devs: I think at 225 you're facing the same issue of potentially crowding out your fast attack formations. You get a lot more firepower and comparable or better FF, at the expense of potentially lost transport. Most of the time, I'd go for the Devs.


BTW, all this is not to say that I think the fast attack options would necessarily disappear. They are still going to be inherently better at maintaining assault distance, so that niche will still be there. It doesn't need to be perfectly balanced. If the fast attack formations can just stay close to competitive, I think it's likely that they'd drop to a support role and you might see 1-2 fast attack formations instead of 3-4. The Tac- or Dev-based combo formations (firepower and assault) would likely provide the base of fire for double/shoot/support combos, with fast attack formation(s) being used to trigger assaults. They'd also be good for late-game objective grabs.

It might work, but I just…loathe the Iron Hands. It’s completely irrational.

Tacs+ Assault – I’ll ask him. You’ve got a definite point re: assault/light firepower formations.

As a general rule, I’d rather make upgrades cheaper than formations cheaper (at least at the moment).

Devs: Basically, I’m trying to have Tacs the most popular/useful formation, with Devs, Fast Attack and vehicles rounding things out. The fast attack formations do have the advantage of being very mobile and quite cheap, and cheap is seriously competitive in a Marine list. I’d like Devs and Fast attack to be roughly equal in utility, with Fast Attack maybe having a slight edge, but Devs still being, if not necessary, useful enough to take. Failing that, I'd like to get it to the point where it's mostly individual taste that sees people decide between them.

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Competely rational thought: You may well have more success getting lists widely adopted if you use Chapters/stuff that already exists in the background, rather than making up your own Chapters.

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True. But the Scions of Iron managed alright. And I equally might narrow my audience by suggesting something I'm simply not attempting. I wouldn't be interesting in an Iron Hands, for example.

Plus, I can't think of an official GW Chapter that fights like this as a rule.

While you're here - thoughts on the pricing of the Assault upgrade? Would it be OK at +50?

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