Probably by attaching units with crap armour to their formation, like Thunderfire Cannons?

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There is the factor of blocking off areas for vehicles and generally making it harder for troops to get to where they have to. Other than that, yes, AV and LV could make use of the trenches and Marines could get a -1 to be hit. Combined with ATSKNF, it could become quite frustrating for an opponent to move the Marines. It's worth a try.

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I thought I would kick off the ideas with the below Marine Defender Siege List. Points can be decided at a later time. Just interested in the look at present.


Marine - Defender Siege List
Core
- Tacticals + Transports (able to swap the transports out for Land Raiders, Preds or Vindactors)
- Devs + Transports (able to swap the transports out for Land Raiders, Preds or Vindactors)
- Trenchworks
- Vidicators - formation of 4-6
- Whirlwinds - formation of 4-6
- Dreadnought formations - 4 - 6

Restricted Formations
- Terminators
- Assault Marines (?)

Upgrades
- Dreads (Siege or Normal)
- Land Raiders - only taken as replacements for transports
- Predators - only taken as replacements for transports
- Vindicators - only taken as replacements for transports
- Thunderfire Cannons - add to the formation (probably 1-2)
- Characters
- Hunters (1-2)

Allies
I like the idea of just having Imperial Bombers, a Reaver and a Warlord as the accessible options. Otherwise standard options available to Marines.

The initial reaction is why would you take it over a Marine list? Well points will be slightly different and it forces a different playstyle with the options of replacements rather than additions. I have tried to keep it Marine focused for now with minimal IG elements.

Thoughts?
Other ideas?

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I've always liked the fists, indeed I can send you a draft list I did frogbear with pictures and yellow bits and everything One thing I was considering was using the tarantulas, including the AA ones, something like 3 AA tarantulas with one control unit and a special rule to say if thats knocked out they go down.

Yup tarantulas make sense for the Imperial Fists.

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TRC - post it up or send me the link or doc.

It would be good to get other ideas happening to make such a list a reality.

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Again, Thunderhammer/Stormshield terminators are vital in an Imperial Fists list.

Nah, its having lots of heavy weapons and still having the same move as marines with bolters

Yep. I was thinking that was the only variant that would be available. I just did not distinguish them for the list above. I really should have done that.

Also, the Predator and Land Raider options (maybe just one option of each?) is also something that would be good to gain agreement on.

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In order to encourage trench usage/foot slogging, I'd make transports an upgrade, and drop the basic formation prices, like chaos marines.

I'd allow whirlwind formations to be up to 8 in size, though not min-maxable, so probably a formation of 4 with an upgrade for another 4.

Yes the whole no transports as standard has come up a lot in the past.

-1 to be hit is quite useful even without an improvement to the armor save. Also, bunkers can have a 3+ cover save.

Someone give that man a cigar!

Good points. Not sure if I can get away with 250 point tactical formations... hmmm

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What is the marines’ idea of a siege?

For mere mortals it is encircling tem with a ring of iron and then hammering at them for several years, and the lost of a few tens of thousands of men, until they capitulate.

Would the marines think in the same way? Would a siege for them be nothing more than encircle the enemy to contain them, then use of air assaults an drop drops to eradicate them, all before afternoon tea.

Such manoeuvres would take time to plan and organise. So a penalty on the fists could be that transport type has to be chosen at list building time. The formation has to be in the trenches, as mobile reserves (rhinos and razorbacks) or in orbit waiting to strike (teleport, drop pods and air assaults). You could ee=ven include limits, such as 25% plus without transport, 0-25% air assault/teleport/drop pods, 0-25% with land transport, 0-33% allies.

This way you can get away without taking away some of the toys they would use, but you feel you have to take away to stop them being marine plus. Since other restrictions are placed on the list.

Another way of restricting the list is for every trench formation you buy you can buy a specialist formation. These can be the rapid deployment formations, or scouts or allied guard formations.

List structure is as much a way of making an army list uniqueas waht is in the list.

Good points ragnorak

I think much of the first part of your post was referring to an attacking army? I was potentially looking at more of a defensive aspect myself, but some of the ideas you have could mean that a list could be made up to show both aspects.

Much of what you have in the 2nd part of the post is very good. I hope you don't mind if I consider some of those for any list I throw out there?

I have been waiting on TRC's list but he is obviously very busy at the moment, so I will try and get a variant together for feedback.

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