Yes, but why are Hurricane Bolters better than a Twin Lascannon & Missile Launcher, or Assault Cannon & Storm Bolter?
It doesn't get the Hurricane Bolters on top of the other Dreadnought weapons, after all... so FF4+ is fine.


And I'm not forgetting, clearly, the Ironclad's niche is in getting into CC, with its better CC attack and better armour.
So there's also no need to make it awesome both at CC and FF. Otherwise you've just made a "Mary Sue" unit.

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No reason why not.


Nothing's wrong with making it cheaper in a list that doesn't have deep-strike options.

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5+ RA is worse than a straight 3+ save. Ironclads have better armour than normal Dreadnoughts, not worse.

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Similar kind of fortification rules to those already seen I'd expect, yes.

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Well the Ironclads gets an in-build Meltagun in the Seismic Hammer.

But ok. Siege = FF, Ironclad = CC (andnothing else i might add!)

5+RA would be actually worse than 3+ save against non-MW attacks, 2+ would be really over the top.

Ok next iteration:

Space Marine Siege Dreadnought
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 15cm 3+ 4+ 3+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Flamestorm Cannon 15cm AP3+ Ignore Cover
Heavy Flamer 15cm AP4+ Ignore Cover
Siege Drill (base contact) Assault Weapon Macro-weapon, Extra-Attack (+1), Ignore Cover
Notes: Walker, Ignore Cover.

Space Marine Ironclad Dreadnought
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 15cm 4+ 3+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Hurricane Bolter (15cm) Small Arms -
Seismic Hammer (base contact) Assault Weapon Macro-weapon, Extra-Attack (+1)
Notes: Reinforced Armour, Walker.[/quote]

Otheride coul dbe to add a Heavy Flamer to the Ironclad (replacing the Storm Bolter of the Seismic Hammer) to give it at least some shooting ability?

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I'm not sure why you need ignores cover in the notes of the Siege Dreadnought's CCW, since you've already applied it to the notes.

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Just to make it sure

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I agree. Either put it in the notes, or just keep it on the weapons.

Though adding Ignore Cover to a CC MW seems kinda irrelevant, due to how Ignore Cover interacts in Assaults. Only infantry get cover saves, there's no penalty to hit, and units don't get a cover save unless they have Reinforced Armor. Most units with RA also have a save good enough to not often warrant the need for Cover Saves. Terminators in fortifications, Tau Stealth Suits in Ruins or better, and that's about it, that actually would suffer a penalty.

Morgan Vening

Actually Macro-weapon ignores ALL cover saves already. Ignore Cover removes the to-hit penalty on shooting weapons.
So it is very useless to mention it twice

Better?

Space Marine Siege Dreadnought
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 15cm 3+ 4+ 3+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Flamestorm Cannon 15cm AP3+ Ignore Cover
Heavy Flamer 15cm AP4+ Ignore Cover
Siege Drill (base contact) Assault Weapon Macro-weapon, Extra-Attack (+1)
Notes: Walker, Ignore Cover.

Space Marine Ironclad Dreadnought
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 15cm 4+ 3+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Hurricane Bolter (15cm) Small Arms -
Seismic Hammer (base contact) Assault Weapon Macro-weapon, Extra-Attack (+1)
Notes: Reinforced Armour, Walker.

Other idea could be to add a Heavy Flamer to the Ironclad (replacing the Storm Bolter of the Seismic Hammer) to give it at least some shooting ability?

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I don't see a need to add a Heavy Flamer to the Ironclad, as that would make it overlap with the Siege Dreadnought.

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If you are adding a shooting attack to the Ironclad (an option I'm not particularly fond of), then you might consider a one-shot missile launcher attack. The Ironclad has the option of up to two hunter-killer missiles (identical in stats to krak missile shots, but one-shot) in 40k, and I'm fairly sure that they're the only dreadnoughts to have the option.

Thus it'd be more characterful and avoid crossover with the Siege Dreadnought.

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To the original question, the chapter isn't all that different. They are codex standard. However, they are good siege operations and it makes sense for them to be representative of a Space Marine Chapter operating in a fairly static siege environment.


I would hope that an IF list could cover both sides of the siege - attacking and defending.

Both would be light on scout units (you already know more or less where the enemy is) and units that have a hard time covering difficult terrain like minefields and razor wire (and the hightech equivalents, obviously). Maneuver elements might me reduced in frequency, but there is need for them in both situations.

Attacking would have lots of bombardment, from orbital to bomber aircraft to ground arty, and would have deepstrike options like drop pods and teleporting termies to take advantages of bombarded defenses. They would also have siegebreaker gear like Vindicators and siege dreads.

Defending forces would have entrenchments and fixed gun positions. SM manpower is limited, so in a defensive role there might be IG/PDF forces pressed into service and giving the siege list access to cheap, filler formations could be an option. If they have an airstrip available, then close air support makes sense. Being SMs, they should have some rapid-response units to plug holes and mount counterattacks.

I guess "filler" units would be automated units like Tarantulas and low crew ones like Thunderfire Cannons.

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There have been a lot of good ideas here. I am going to see if I can put together a skeleton list for a Marine seige list and see what people think.

It would be good to have a community designed lists for when IA10 hits because then it may just be a case of adding the odd new unit here or there.

The hardest part is fulfilling the attack and defend aspects in the one list - may just break it up into two lists.

Who knows, it may just show that the Apocrypha list fills the void for an attacking force. Let's see how we go shall we..

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This gets to my question, which was how to encourage SMs to actually bother getting down in a trench -- with a 4+ armor save, a 4+ cover save just isn't that useful.