I'm w/ you Zombocom, although I don't think you quite got it yet.

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Yup, that's the intention, but it'll take a few revisions to get there.

I really wanted to get another game in before I commented, but all my game plans have fallen through, so I’m just going to write based on reading the list and my experience fighting Saim-Hann Eldar.

First off, it’s a very nice looking document! Too nice for a play testing doc, as it’s just killing my ink levels to print out the watermarked background; is it possible to get just a black-and-white “plain text” doc as changes are made?

Now, on to the ripping and tearing! (I’ll be posting these in chunks.)

Special Rules

With the change in initiative values in Leviathan, Instinctive is functionally the same as Relentless. The variable base initiative based on the presence of Synapse creatures is something I was planning on doing in the next “core” release, so this is all fine. I still like the word “relentless” for this ability, over “instinctive”, as it shows that the Tyranids “just won’t stop”.

Expendable, Mobility, and Gaunt are all basically the same, so no comments there.

Without Number is spawning without the baggage of the word “spawning”, and simplified to just common infantry. It’s interesting to allow “new” models to be brought back instead of putting casualties first in a “spawning pool”, but my opponent absolutely *hated* the idea that I was getting “free” models; by the end of Turn 1 in my game I’d spawned around 400 points of free models, and would’ve doubled that if we’d done the intended rolling for all Synapse swarms in the End Phase; lounging around the Brood Nest for a turn to add 4-12 units to a bunch of formations seems like a good investment for 50 points... it should probably cost a lot more or not work if the enemy contests/controls it. (There’s also the idea of the Brood Nest as War Engine, but I don’t think it should replace an Objective then.)

To add to that frustration, there was no mechanism, short of killing all the Synapse creatures, for him to prevent it. Lastly, despite it being conceptually valid in a “real world” sense, the idea that I could always choose the “right tool for the job” was also irritating to him. Limiting a player to the models they’ve purchased with points, for use in a tournament army, just seems fairing/more acceptable on first blush.

Another oddity that comes up, and nearly occurred in the playtest game, is that when “Symbiotic Swarms” spawn, it can cause weirdness with Tie-breaker points. Example: My 5DC Hierophant spawned 3 Gaunts during the game that just palled around for most of the game. The Bio-Titan gets killed and the Gaunts break and run, now, if they had rallied, my opponent would’ve gotten 0 victory points as the formation started with 5 (DC) units, and now still had three, so wasn’t “Under Half” for points. I can’t see that going over well.

Burrowing vs Tunnellers: the whole concept should probably be cleared up as a general, game-wide rule to allow for non-transport units deploying this way and preventing long chains to exploit the first unit being placed in your own half and then stretching into enemy territory with remaining units.

One last comment on the Special Rules: the “Synapse special rule” is referenced multiple times… yet there isnt’ one! It’s certainly *implied*, but should probably be spelled out as it’s an important feature of the list.

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Chroma, I'd be interested to hear your view on the Inf Warriors (and other 'medium' beasts). It's one of the issues that gets brought up with the 9.2.1 list and having played with a considerable inf horde it would be interesting to see how you and your opponent found them. I'd guess they were ok or you would have brought it up in your comments.

Sensible enough.



I changed the name for two reasons; firstly because it's slightly different to your rule, so a change was sensible in order not to clash. Secondly, because it is about their instinctive behavior; feeding or lurking. In 40k each type of creature either feeds or lurks when without synapse, and that's largely what this rule represents, the instinctive abilities of the creatures themselves whether controled by synapse or not.



Without Number is an attempt to try something new. It may or may not work, I don't know yet. I'm fairly certain that I want only little stuff spawnable, both for simplicity and representation purposes. The name is of course an attempt to get away from the idea of creatures soley being "born" (though in some cases such as the Dominatrix or Tervigon that is the case).

The allowing of new models to be spawned is of course contraversial, but is being trialed because I've never liked the "reincarnation" or "resurrection" feel of spawning. Equally you mentioned in a previous thread that no alternative mechanisms had been tried other than "resurrection".

Adding new models works in other games; for example in Warhammer fantasy the undead can summon zombies from the earth etc.

An alternative could be something more along the lines of Daemon summoning; you buy a pool of Common Clusters before the game at, say, half price, and can only spawn those units.



I consider the ability to get the right tool as somewhat limited by the small selection of summonable units, and to me it's no worse than 9.2.1's ability to leave units out of coherency just so they can be spawned elsewhere, and war engine spawning.



Good point, annoyingly. Clearing out all the changed tournament scenario conditions was one of the primary goals of this list, but some guidance on tie breakers may still be neccesary.



Yup, a better worded official Burrowers rule would help no end with several lists.



Yes, mostly because on its own it doesn't actually do much, it just interacts with other rules! I guess I could add section for it repeating the 1+ intiative thing.

Haven't gotten to that part yet... *laugh*

Tunnellers/Burrowers really needs a unified game wide rule as every army seems to have a slight variation. I went with the following rule where the key section is the limiting distance from the tunnelling marker of 15cm (although it may be simplified to first model placed instead of a tunnel marker).

Subterranean Assault: Formations where all the units have the Tunneller ability may use the Subterranean Assault
rule. Tunneller formations are set up on their own table edge before the battle starts, at the same time that spacecraft are
deployed (see 4.0). Write down the location where the tunneller formation will surface at the same time and in the same
manner that you record the co-ordinates of a drop zone (see 4.3.3). You must also secretly record when the tunneller
will surface. If it is going to appear in your half of the table it may arrive from the second turn onwards. If it is going to
appear in the opposing half of the table, it may arrive from turn three onwards. Place a tunnel marker at the recorded coordinates
at the start of the stated turn. Place the tunnelling units within 5cm of the tunnel marker or within 5cm of
another unit in the same formation already placed, so long as all units are within 15cm of the tunnel marker. Tunnelling
formations may take an action on the turn they appear.

[quote="zombocom"]
I changed the name for two reasons; firstly because it's slightly different to your rule, so a change was sensible in order not to clash. Secondly, because it is about their instinctive behavior; feeding or lurking. In 40k each type of creature either feeds or lurks when without synapse, and that's largely what this rule represents, the instinctive abilities of the creatures themselves whether controled by synapse or not.
[quote]

and i assume you know that those rules initially came from the original Epic Tyranid rules, back in SM2 right?

sorry, nothing else to add just yet, maybe i'll playtest some soonish ^^;

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~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

For those Brood Nests how about something like this:
Use Brood Nest in the same way as Wraith Gates with the exeption that each Brood Nest (perhabs you can purchase more than one?) can only hold one Swarm/Formation (even Bio Titans. IA4 actually suggests this).

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Nah, I like the brood nest as a spawning bonus rather than a portal.

Played using this list last night and here are some comments:
- Synapse and formation management is easier and less confusing and prone to disagreement w/ opponent than the rule in 9.2.1. On the other hand, this makes the cheapest Dominatrix formation cost 625 points and that's just including 8 gaunts besides the big bitch which do nothing but provide combat resolution points to the opponent in an assault (albeit at a 50% rate). Any attempt to make this formation anything besides the Dominatrix and the gaunts by adding AVs or other WEs makes it too big and unwieldy in my opinion. Not sure what the solution is as the Dominatrix is such a staple of the Epic 'nid list.
- It was a bit confusing w/ the Trygon + Ravener swarms as I kept forgetting that the Trygon Prime had an extra MW attack from the Symbiote. In fact, I think the extra attack from the Symbiote is unnecessary. Just make a rule that calling something a 'Prime' gives it just Synapse and in that way there's no need for extra info or extra rules to remember.
- I used spores and they were all right, although their low movement hinders their ability to catch up to swarms that as a rule move twice as fast. I don't think making them move at 20 cm is a solution as that doesn't match the critter's abilities, but having Scout or Teleport would fix it. The former is especially fluffy as it would allow a formation of just 8 spores to cover a wide area to form the 'cloud' that is often associated w/ spores. Teleport would simulate them drifting in from outside the battlefield and would require some careful planning about future moves and AA coverage but this would need a special rule as in 9.2.1 about Spores not holding objectives.
- As for the Ravener vs Gaunt debate I think they are balanced. Both are expendable, but the Gaunts special rule is very very useful as the little bugs are usually removed by the bucketload. So as far as I'm concerned, no change needed.
- I also used zoanthropes and they did what I expected of them. In terms of classification, not sure they should be Inf as the model in both 40k and Epic is about the size of a Carnifex which is an AV (yes, I know Zoans have only 2 wounds in 40k). Then again, I'm not sure what goes into classifying things in E:A lists.

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Nah in 40k they're more the size of a Warrior, and are less tough too. Carnifexes have at least 3 times the mass, maybe more.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

The dominatrix is supposed to be rare, so I'm not that worried if it's a difficult choice to take it or not. I definitely don't consider it a staple of the list. I may consider a change to the cluster requirements for it though.



I'm quite happy with this how it is, since in 40k the Trygon Prime has a more powerful bio-electric attack, which would be a MW FF attack in epic. It works out quite elegantly, and I'm sure you'd remember it after a game or two.



I'd pretty sure that Scout would allow too large an AA cover. If you want AA to keep up with formations, take gargoyles, if you want AA to garrison and cover an area of the board, take spores.



Interesting.



As E&C mentioned, Zoanthropes are a lot smaller than carnifexes in 40k, they're a similar size (and similar defensive stats) to warriors, lictors etc. The old epic zoanthrope model was notably oversized compared to its modern incarnation represented by this list. I am borderline on them being LV though.

- I think the Dominatrix is a very easy choice to take! It's got Supreme Commander, is a Synapse creature, DC8 w/ good save and invulnerable, kicks-ass in an assault, some ranged firepower including a pre-assault softening 4BP template, etc. It's just that the rest of the formation that goes w/ it can either be absolutely useless (and a hindrance considering their lack of save) or you can just spend a whole lot of points and end up w/ a 1k formation. Balancing act I guess. If your intention is to make taking the Dominatrix the equivalent of taking a Warlord Titan, i.e. costs close to 1000 points, then you've achieved it because Dominatrix plus 400 or so points of helpers is very strong. The more naked Dominatrix (oo-er) like I fielded does feel odd though as the helpers didn't help at all. This might have been because I assaulted CSMs w/ this fm and thus the hormagaunts were more likely to die rather than do a casualty. I will perhaps try the Dominatrix w/ 8 Raveners and see how it works.
- Fine w/ the Trygon Prime, but then I think it's worth mentioning in the Trygon data entry that the Prime version has that extra attack. Maybe list the attack w/ a (Prime only) note to it. As it stands they are 5 or 6 pages apart I believe. A layout issue!
- Yes, I only noticed now that Spores can actually hold an objective by themselves as opposed to 9.2.1. I was using them in the wrong way.
- Still not sure how people determine what is inf, av or lv outside of classic armies like humans, eldar and orks. Size? Mass? Number of them needed to make an effective unit? The zoan is as tall as a wraithlord, isn't he? And fights by himself not in formations so one would think AV. But then he's a bit puny and skinny so more like infantry in that sense. Obviously I prefer him to be inf

A couple of last considerations that I forgot to mention on my first post:
- Without Number seemed okay although I didn't use the Brood Nest. I like that you can't heal DCs w/ it and are very limited on what you can add to a formation. Since there's so little to distinguish between termies, hormies and ravies in game terms, it doesn't feel very cheesy to give players the option to choose.
- The Trygon has a bit of an unusual save for a Tyranid and I was wondering why you picked it. Most Tyranid big beasts have a 4+ reinforced w/ the hierodules getting a 3+ reinforced. The Trygon has a 3+ which is not reinforced. Is it especially squishy compared to say a Hive Tyrant? Just seemed a bit arbitrary that's all.
- Why no flying Tyrants? Get that w/ Gargoyles and Harpies and it'd give the 'Nid player a very fast option that is still a Synapse Swarm. Besides there might be people out there w/ winged Tyrants from the previous list (I don't have one so am not being cheeky).

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'bout 2/3rds the height of a Wraithlord I'd guess. Plus, it's modelled hovering on top of a growing tendril kinda thing. It's about the same *mass* as a Warrior.


You do buy them in groups of 1-3 though... and three proper scale Zoanthropes (IE: Not the goofy oversized GW models) fit nicely on a single infantry base.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter