There are two points to consider here.

The first, is that a single battle report is not a good statistical sample. While it might show evidence of some problems, there are too many variables that can be a factor (general luck, comparative skill levels, comparative style levels, environmental factors, terrain placement), to take a single playtest as a comprehensive conclusion. Similarly, multiple playtests from a single set of players also has it's issues. That's the main reason I released the list, rather than keep it as a local thing. See what other people can do with it.

The second, is that my desire to develop this list wasn't one of balance. I don't believe the Thurgrim/Demiurg list is imbalanced, and that's why I encourage people to develop that list for the uber-competitive stress tests needed. My list was built because it didn't FEEL* like Squats. How can I quantify an aesthetic opinion in a battle report?

* Personal opinion only.

Morgan Vening

That decision was because of the controversy surrounding them in the Demiurg/Thurgrim development, as well as seeing Thudd Guns done differently, combined with an inability to accept a Basilisk having inferior firepower (range aside). Barring some kind of uber-special tech, I take the size of Basilisks as the minimum needed to generate BP.


Did you meant "lack of motivation" to mean failed Initiative tests, or it not being worth moving due to their slower movement? The latter indicates a potential problem with the 10cm move, the former isn't going to be solved by mechanizing them unless you're going to risk keeping them in the transports. A failed activation only gives them the one move, which is bad for a mechanized formation.


Look forward to hearing more. Did anything 'pop'? Either in the positive, or negative? Anything the Dvergatal player will definitely play with again or will dismiss? And as importantly, did the player running the Dvergatal not consider any units or formations? Some things get "proven" good or bad on the table, but others don't even get that consideration (Tau Gun Drones for a long time), and I don't want to see that neglected either. If it looks bad on paper, that's at least as important IMO as how a unit performs on the table.

Morgan Vening

Actually there are no points to consider. I was just attemting (and failing, apparently) to add some levity. I'm going to go away now.

yarr, bugger ye off, we don'ts wants your types 'round 'ere!

besides, I prefer brevity. Or was that beverage? I dunno...

Knowing you, it was probably beverage.

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Did someone say beer

Jaldon

_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC

Yeah. My dice were quite less than spectacular this game. First activation was a Cyclops sustaining fire into a formation of 10 stompas. I fired off 4 of the missiles for the maximum of combat damage with thoughts of firing off the last 2 the next turn. I killed 1 stompa I think while having 8 shots. The uber mega death laser of DOOM also MISSED both times I fired it. The battlecannon also failed miserably.

My big bike formation, 6 bikes + 3 trikes + 2 hearthguard failed to activate both times.

Spectrar Ghost is correct, I probably did need to mechanize my infantry formation. Though the cost for that would have been massive because it was a big formation.

My list IIRC was this.

Forger Guild Level 3. + Living Ancestor + 1 Thunderer stand.

Biker Guild Level 2. 3 Trikes + 2 Hearthguard

Artillery Level 2. 5 Thudd Gun, 4 Mole Mortar, Thunderfire

Supports

6 Thunderers

6 Thunderers

2 Goliaths + 1 Thunderfire

Cyclops

Blaster Company. 3 Rapier, 3 Tarantula.

One other thing of note. When I was working on this list there was a point when I had a spare support point but only 150 points left to spend. Outside of the Hellbore which isn't easy to buy and wouldn't have been useful in this case there are no formations period that cost under 175 points. With the stuff I was trying which was a bit of everything I was finding it very hard to get to that 3 activations per 1000 points I like to try to get to.

lordgoober the recommended limits are 2.5 to 3.5 activations per 1,000 points so that is 7 to 11 activations. (7.5 to 10.5 to be precise) It depends a lot on the army with most Squats, by any present list available, falling into the middle range and should do fine in a game.

While I do think the present list does need some tweeking, and some serious playtesting (Not saying this has not been done), on the whole it does present some very interesting ideas nobody has really thought of before. The way the army is put together being a good case in point. (The entire support point system instead of the standard of 2 for 1 style ratios)

Having spent the last two nights trying to put together a list for a battle this weekened I am finding the same problem you have mentioned of not being able to find a balance between points, support points, and the army type one wishes to field. This is not entirely a bad thing, but something I think we need to be aware of at this time.

Morgan while you admit to stealing from other Squat lists, and I have NO PROBLEM with this, you have also presented some interesting ideas I think should be persued further. If you do not mind I would like to continue to do so.

Jaldon

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I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC

Yep. Read my post on the 10cm move a few pages back. From my playtests I found this out.

Morgan showed me how effective tunnelers were if they come up at the right time and place as well.



In one of the games I linked a Leviathan. This was a real bane to Morgan who could not figure a way to break the formation. It is a different force and cannot be played like other (queue Imp Guard) as while they have some awesome toys, the Dvergatal can be quickly outmaneuvered or misplaced. So it is finding that balance, and working on the strengths to get past those weaknesses. Takes a few games in my experience.



I always had a problem getting both SC into an army and I gave Morgan a week of badgering about it What I did not take into account was that I just needed to change the playstyle and realise I could not take all the toys I wanted to take. If I went with the two Goliaths, then that probably meant I could not get the cool Iron Eagles (and they used to be far better than what they are now - believe me).

So it was all about making the list with a goal in mind rather than a list for all occasions. That is what I like about the list, you cannot have everything. If you could, it would be one boring army build after another with a spare 500 points which changes when you want to try something different. That is the true strength of this list - building the army with the goal in mind. You cannot really afford to have formations that will not suit the rest of the army battle plan.

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Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

beer is what your supposed to drink with your friends/mates while playing a game of epic-A.. and then chunking bad dice into the microwave to influence the next dice roll to be better.(from other dice of course, mic'd dice do not roll well).
In all seriousness i like the demiurg list though i'm not much for the particle shielding. Though i have not been able to play but one game with that list. I'll read this new alternate list but im not exactly liking the 10cm movement. It will force me to put my dude's in transports so they can move around a bit more effectively.

Btw, ever thought of using the stat line's for the 10 squad or in a squats case 12 squad Gorgon(E&C's AMTL list/Alt guard lists).. aka the miniature of Otterware. its what i would like to use instead of trying to find 4 more old style gorgons since i only have 2 of them. Though it may not be squat enough to use i still think it should be considered. I mean.. all that trading used to go on between the AM and the squats at one time.

I only have about 2 of the old style gorgons too

I believe it was a deliberate choice by Morgan to not adopt a War Engine as the Gorgon Transport and to use the old minis to fit into his ideal.

I will let Morgan explain it further however...

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

not having enough gorgons isn't a huge problem for me as I think I've got 9 MK1s and 6 MK 2s and access to others from local former gw employees.

The old Gorgons sell for cheap on ebay, so you can always pick them up that way. Or trade for them.

That's not an uncommon occurance. I was almost tempted to rename the Cyclops "Bullwinkle". Cause that trick never works.


I assume you meant Hearth Cavalry. Did they ever get involved in something, or was the two failed activations enough to keep them completely out of the game.


One of the things that I found, was that in a situation like that, dropping the size of one of the bigger guilds frees enough points to get a minimum sized Guild. The Support Points don't change, and so doesn't affect the rest of your list design.

Morgan Vening