Morgan, I wasn't saying you had 6 rules (or any specific number at all). I was just commenting on lists in general and how many they tend to have. I'm not sure what is so funny about that. Somebody is feeling sensitive...

Let me respectfully disagree on the Supports.

In your list the "Supports" are how the army is put together, not really anything special as per the rules. (Instead of saying two supports per Core formation taken your list gives points for each type of core formation taken to 'buy' support formations with. An interesting and unique idea to be sure, and I find it very interesting for its simplicity, but still only the way the army is pur together>nothing really special)

I'll get to the rest probably tommorrow, remember just trying to help here and tossing out some ideas, never know sometimes inspiration comes to another when I post a dumb idea.

Tonight I want to try and put together a bent list while Rich is at home trying to figure out how to break it.

Jaldon

I know a dead parrot when I see one and I am looking at one right now

While I guess the bolded text COULD be interpreted as having a neutral tone, if you hadn't read the list and were commenting off the cuff. I assumed you had at least looked at the list, and if so, the general phrasing, at least in my mind, was that the Dvergatal had a lot of special rules, and that it should be pared down.

As for feeling sensitive, that couldn't be farther from the truth. While I enjoy Epic, it's not something I'd ever stress over. Too many important things in life to emotionally invest in a game. People need to turn their frowns upside down, and see the funny instead of the sad.

Morgan Vening

Basically Morgan it IS impression, when one looks at the list (FOr the first time) the first thing that hits them is a list of special rules. In many ways that is a big turn off.

I do believe that my first comments about too many special rules was miss interpeted, because I had read the list. The comment was meant do describe the presentation more then the list itself.

That is why I am trying to cut it down and put them in other places, places I feel they really belong as in most cases they aren't really special rules. See my comments on Supports above.

As for 'feeling sensitive' it is difficult to get the real meaning in the printed word, without going overboard with your word count LOL, so misunderstandings in meaning do happen. Mostly the crowed I have delt with on the Epic-A forums shrug it off and move on. There are exceptions, of course, but the majority get on.

I am hoping to get an updated Thurgrimm's Squat List up some time this coming week, so work on the Demiurg/Squats (From this end) has not stopped. I am hoping that epilgrim will also be able to get the updated Demiurg up at the same time. So work on them does continue.

However I am so intrigued by Morgan's list that I wanted to mess with it (On the gaming table) and try to see if I could help him improve it, and possibly avoid some of the pitfalls we already crossed. In this case presentation is what I really want to try and help Morgan improve.

Well off to bed 5:00am comes early

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I put it all down to the presentation and wording.

As Morgan said in a different context, one wants apples and another wants oranges. Don't feed a man an apple that wants an orange.

I believe that the format Lord Inquisitor had for his lists was quite good and all the special rules stayed on the one page. They were well boxed and easy to read.

As it is a similar force, let me use the Chaos Squats as an example. I have the following:
- 1 race rule
- 2 unit rules (one shared as a main rule - disposable)
- 2 vehicle specific rules (both shared with other lists)
- 2 weapon rules (one shared with the official rules from Eldar)

Not one person has said anything about the design or the rules. I hate to make assumptions, however it would appear that the people that have read that document do not have a problem with the rules or understanding them within the force.

So I am looking at this from another angle; regardless of whether there is 1 special rule or 9, if they are presented in an easy to read and accessible format (a single sheet that can sit there on a table), then there should be no issue. A page of special rules (written clearly) is easier to refer to than small writing on pages of datafaxes or a reference sheet when trying to 'hide' special rules in such formats.

Anyone who looks at a well presented page of special rules and thinks it is too hard was never really interested in the force from the start.

Just another thought to throw out there.

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Jaldon

Are you able to elaborate on what the 'pitfalls' actually were in the development? I just think it would be easier to work with if they were listed rather than the idea being as vague as what a playtest will bring out.

I was the sounding board for Morgan when he envisioned the list, and I gained quite a good understanding of his view and what he wanted. The Dvergatal list was not created on a whimsical thought, but out of a frustration with the lists that were available. With feedback so far, Morgan may have hit a cord with other players who would normally (and still do) remain silent as his thoughts may be shared by others.

It is easy to state that a large playgroup agree with a list, however if there is no comparison, the feedback could be one sided. A list like Morgan's could inspire others to say "hey, I like that better". Then what?

So getting back on track; if those 'pitfalls' include things like a 10cm move, which is a core design rule of the list and not one that Morgan will change, then it would be best to talk about those or other things further (as what may have been discarded may actually be a future solution). In ~9 games played with the Dvergatal (which I have played the most of I believe) we have pretty much nutted the majority of items Morgan wanted to stress-test. Items which exist in the other squat lists that differ are AV that Morgan believes should be LV (as why they are impervious to Heavy Bolter fire is beyond us), and the way Morgan wanted to represent the different vehicles and the culture of the 'dying race' immediately seem to be at odds with the Squat lists present. I digress however (again)...

Yes, plasytests are required and serve to point out issues with consistent troop types that are taken or the opposite. They are also good to stress test formations and units, but what more?

What I think is needed however is (if you wish) to gain some parity to the lists (and Morgan I do not believe has a real interest in moving from his vision), is to discuss what is in the list, what is in your lists, and the items that were discarded in the past and why? 10cm move has been discussed - that's fine (apples and oranges) - surely there were other learnings and 'pitfalls' that a good theoretical discussion could help with? For starters, the land train - is it not different in every list? Why? What are the problems and what is an inevitable solution that will have the lists accepting the same or similar. Same goes for the Overlord.

I believe the idea of 'playtests first' is hiding the real issues behind the development towards parity. How many playtests will it take before real discussions can start?

I am going to stop here for now as long posts rarely get read...

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“When it is obvious that the goals cannot be reached, don't adjust the goals, adjust the action steps.” - Confucius

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I don't know, he's a pretty determined kinda guy. I'm packing up the wife and kids just in case, I'm sure they won't mind spending the next few weeks sitting in the car.

don't worry Bill, I've slapped him around a bit and put him on the straight and narrow.

Oooh! Slap me next!

Uhm (gains composure)... So, uh, what were we talking about?

Oh yeah. I honestly don't think there is a problem with 12cm moves, or 50cm ranges. If it is a one off for a single unit it is easy to remember, and if it is consistent across all infantry it would be easy to remember. It is only when, for example, half the infantry move at 15cm and the other half move at 10cm (or 12cm, or 13cm, or who cares) that things get crummy. I would totally support a 10cm (or 12cm) move for infantry if I thought it contributed to a list's function and/or flavor.

To anyone who thinks it's a bad idea: pull out your tape measure and look at the 1cm mark and the 15cm mark. You will note all these other numbers ranging from 2 to 14. Wow! How did those get there?

Yes. Pack up the kids now and don't look back.

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what? there are units of measurement between 1cm and 15cm? Heresy! you should be burnt/ drowned/ hung etc!

You know they used to burn people like you?

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Alright I decided to do some really deep research into those tiny little marks on the rulers we all use. My lord much too my surprise it DOES have marks below values of five Even more it has even smaller marks between the whole numbers

I have quickly sent an email both to MIT and JPL for further clarification on what I now feel is a mutual discovery by all of us in this section of the forums. Don't any of you worry I will be sure to include all of your names in this discovery. Boy will it be great to see all of our pictures printed in the American Journal of Science next to the text of this discovery. Damn, there could even be a Noble Prize in it for all of us

Morgan keep the 10cm move until I can bring a report to show how to abuse it, or fail in the attempt (Which I will also report)

In the battle I am putting together, between Rich and myself, we will purposly be trying to break the list. Rich is going to try and exploit the 10cm movement, as he did before when we used it in our early Squat playtests, and I will be trying to bend, fold, and mutilate the Seeker/Spotter rule to see if I can make a big bang shooty army list. We are going to try a bevy of three battle total over the next week, so no batrep like I did on the Space Wolves, but I will report our findings.

If need be I will put a full batrep together, with maps, if something conclusive comes out of the three battle set. Good enough?

Jaldon

Yay! That's how real men game geeks solve their problems: war between tiny soldiers followed by an egregious amount of analysis.

Of course I'd like to see a batrep from Morgan abusing the Demiurg or Thurgrim's lists. You know, tit-for-tat.

Last night's game (vs. Orks) was a wash, due to some absolutely horrific dice on the Dvergetal's part. As a spectator, the list felt well balanced, certainly there were no offenders on the scale of the Mole Mortar battery in the Demiurg list. Definitely like the Thudd-style AP/AT better than the Disrupt Barrage of the Demiurg. The 10cm move was nearly as much of a handycap as the complete lack of any motivation to do anything on the part of several brotherhoods, but the Infantry formations were not mechanized, which would go a ways to remedying the problem. We'll be testing this list more in the near future, as it is (IMO) clearly a better put together list. Hopefully Lordgoober will give some firsthand impressions soom.

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