jaldon454 wrote:
I have no objections to ANY other proposed Squat lists being presented on the forums, it will be up the community to decide which to make official.
I'll re-iterate what I said in the first post. "First, this is not being put forward as a replacement for an official Squat list. It's purely an alternate version". That wasn't some passive-aggressive twaddle. I don't have the time or energy to commit, not the desire to compromise, to put my hand up for an official challenge. The disclaimer was put in, to hopefully head off this kind of reaction. It obviously failed.
jaldon454 wrote:
My objections to the Dvergatal Confederation Squat list is two fold.
(1) Far too many special rules breaking KISS which IS what seperates Epic-A from WH40k and other GW games. It also makes play balancing the list very difficult as it adds too many variables to try to take into account.The true strength of Epic-A over many other games IS its play balance.
Then you need to have another look. Firstly, there are 7 listed rules (9 if you include Lance and Piercing Shot*). I put them all up front, but Support, Linking and Transport could all be easily shifted out of Special Rules, and into the army list or datafax respectively. So that leaves 4. I just don't like having special rules in three (or more) different places.
Resolute is a big one. The rest are fairly minor, or weapon mods, with one being a potential fix to a rule I just despise (Tunnelers). Support Craft was just my adopting the rule of other lists, so that there was some consistency of rule. If that and Lance got adopted into the rules proper, I'd be down to 2 rules, + 2 tech mods.
Comparison not just to Eldar (Farsight, Hit and Run, Technology mods x3, Avatar, May Not Garrison) can be argued that Eldar's an "official list" and so comparisons shouldn't be made. Fair enough. There seems to be little to no opposition to Tau**, and Chroma Tyranids*** getting at least as many rules. Where's KISS there?
I looked for a PDF for Demiurg v4, but couldn't find one. Demiurg v3 has two(Stubborn, Tunnellers at least as complex as mine), and six technology mods (Goliath/Thunderfire, Mole Mortar, Particle Shielding, Iron Eagle Spotter, Power Flux, and I'll clump the three Land Train ones into one).
* I should probably include those. , I figured people looking at this would probably familiar with those, but I may be wrong.
** CoOrd Fire, Markerlights, TauPacks, Deflectors and Support Craft, potentially Tiger Sharks and Etheral in that.
*** Swarm, Relentless, Mobility, Spawning, Tunnelers (the standard form), and Objectives.
jaldon454 wrote:
(2) The complaint that the present Squat/Demiurg Lists look too much like IG lists is not valid. The base behind Thurgrimms list IS the Squat/Warlord list of Epic Titanicus fame, and for a good reason. There are many players that already have Squat Armies built around that list and to ignore that orgainization would be to ignore them.
You say tomato... I didn't claim they looked too much like IG, though I probably should have been clearer on that point. Composition IS fairly different. What I should have said, was that I felt they PLAYED like IG. I played more than a couple of games with Thurgrims (and it's subset), and a couple with Demiurg (v3 at the time). And it didn't feel different to my IG armies. You can disagree with my interpretation all you want, but it's my opinion, and an opinion can be neither invalid or wrong.
I purposefully went out of my way to keep most formations of a similar size to the existing armies. Again, I had to refer to Demiurg v3, but if you're going to compare, why are artillery in 9's (they were multiples of 5 in the initial rules), or bikers/trikers (7 and 5 respectively), and Iron Eagles (initially 3's).
jaldon454 wrote:
It may sound like I am trying to pull my punches here, but actually I am not. What I am trying to say is that we can either work together within the parmeters of the old Squat Titanicus list as best we can within the Epic-A system.
And what I'm saying, is this isn't a challenge to the 'official' Squat list. This is an alternative list, done in almost the same fashion as Zombocom's Leviathan list, and E&C's alternate Tau lists, and for (I believe) pretty much the same purpose. A different take on the concept, done because the writer wanted to show their interpretation, not as a challenge to the existing works. If some of those ideas gained acceptance by the Army Champion, good. If it got the Army Champion fired up to complete their list, even better. But in and of itself, it was a player showing a list that he wanted to play. No different than a CAD design, or a greenstuff modeller, or a paint job.
jaldon454 wrote:
This would then satisfy the vast majority of old Titanicus Squat players, or try to plow new ground and lose the vast majority of those same players. This IS the lesson I learned when I first put Thurgrimms list together so many years ago. (IE I tried to break the mold and got spanked hard for trying to do it by those same players.)
And that's why I've made it clear I've no interest in stewardship of the list. I have my vision, and while I'll accept balance critiques, and opinions, the overall feel is one I want to retain.
jaldon454 wrote:
No matter what we can either work together or create a host of un-official lists that no m=one in numbers will accept. My vote is to try to work together on a list BASED around the old Titanticus System as it WILL please teh MAJORITY of the people whom presently own Squat armies.
No, you can do that. And I encourage people to help you with it. I'll help myself, if I have the time. Knightworld will be my focus until it's ready, for the forseeable future. But the one thing I would suggest for you not to do, is make it based around the old Titanicus system. Most of my local playgroup have unfond memories of that time, with one player initially dismissing even the concept of Squats making it into this edition. Horror games where the Squat player stayed in his DZ and blew the opponent to pieces with artillery and superheavies, haven't been forgotten.
Morgan Vening
