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Caestus assault ram

 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:42 am 
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well, the way I was proposing it it was a drop pod with some FF punch, not an attached transport. I can't see what an attached transport would do that a Thunderhawk wouldn't. Specifically, at 50 Pts a Caestus, it would be cheaper than a thunderhawk to Air assault with a tactical formation, and have some added punch as well (3 FF4+ attack & 3 FF4+ MW).
On the other hand, once "rammed", the Caestus cannot be reused immediately (during the same game).

This fit better with both the Caestus background and the epic setting than having it a skimmer (seriously, does it look like it would work as a space marine wave serpent ?).
Having an assault raming barge count as a skimmer is typical imo of the hideous rule contortions performed in 40K to fit a cool concept in a limited game system. Let's dispense with such horrors in Epic.


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 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:09 pm 
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Athmospheric wrote:
I can't see what an attached transport would do that a Thunderhawk wouldn't.

You have a planetfall formation formation that can retain mobility. That's huge. It allows ground and planetfall forces to maneuver in conjunction more effectively.

The concept of a skimmer dropship was introduced over a year ago as the Storm Eagle. I incorporated it into the Ravenguard list and there have been several test games with it. It's useful and fun.

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This fit better with both the Caestus background and the epic setting than having it a skimmer (seriously, does it look like it would work as a space marine wave serpent ?).

I think this is a hard case to make. According to the background, SM Speeders can and do drop from orbit. This is a grav drive assault vehicle. Why would the Marines not use it for ground assaults? That's the obvious use. What other design would be functional for a planetfall transport?

Personally, I think it's the weird contortions they went through to make it an assault boat for use in ship-to-ship combat that are the cobbled-together bits.


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 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Yes. Background wise it makes no sense that this is thing operates at ground (skimmer) level. It should be a space only vehicle with no place on a gaming with planetbound troops.

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 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:35 am 
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well if bill ever gets to posting the pics of these. i made a epic scale Ram and their really cool. i tried to post pics but didnt work. pics too big or whatever.


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 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:27 am 
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This would make a great 'counts as' model at 6mm scale.

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 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:07 am 
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I could see it being used to punch through fortifications, or as an objective.


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 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:13 am 
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nealhunt wrote:
Athmospheric wrote:
I can't see what an attached transport would do that a Thunderhawk wouldn't.

You have a planetfall formation formation that can retain mobility. That's huge. It allows ground and planetfall forces to maneuver in conjunction more effectively.


In effect, i think it's so huge that it's actually too big. I can't see were the description of the Caestus fit the "skimmer APC" role.

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The concept of a skimmer dropship was introduced over a year ago as the Storm Eagle. I incorporated it into the Ravenguard list and there have been several test games with it. It's useful and fun.

I'm sure it's useful, but actually it completely remove the dilemma between planet falling and using traditional transport. That's the design issue IMO.

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I think this is a hard case to make. According to the background, SM Speeders can and do drop from orbit. This is a grav drive assault vehicle. Why would the Marines not use it for ground assaults? That's the obvious use. What other design would be functional for a planetfall transport?


Exactly, it can be used for Assault, that's precisely the idea. Not as a *transport option* that allow planetfall as well. The planet falling transport is already in, it's the Thunderhawk. Seeing marines re-embarking in their assault barge to skim a little farther and re assaulting doesn't feel like marines to me; I like the fact that they either fall from orbit in all-in assault or use APCs (rhinos, etc) to act more conventionally.

Giving them a skimmer APC would make a marine formation work like aspect warriors in wave serpents, it's certainly be useful but I would think of it as poor design at best. An artillery company and a formation of SHT would be useful too, would that be good design ?


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 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:30 pm 
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Athmospheric wrote:
I can't see were the description of the Caestus fit the "skimmer APC" role.

It's the rules as written - fast, skimmer, tank, transport 10 - in 40k, that translates to skimmer APC.

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I'm sure it's useful, but actually it completely remove the dilemma between planet falling and using traditional transport. That's the design issue IMO.

I agree with you. I think that this type of vehicle could be very abusive. However, with a high point cost, along with the fact that planetfall requires a spacecraft and must be pre-plotted (right? I never bother with planetfall with my eldar, so I'm not 100% sure) it could be an acceptable unit. I do think that a full Tact formation would be over the top, that's why I suggested having special formations instead of allowing the Caestus as a freely available transport.


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 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:36 pm 
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Quote:
I can't see were the description of the Caestus fit the "skimmer APC" role.

I agree it's gone completely goony but the design started as a skimmer dropship. Mechanically, it's still a skimmer dropship. In play it's going to be used as a skimmer dropship. The ship-to-ship aspect of the Caestus background isn't really applicable to a ground combat game (so, neither 40K nor Epic). There's no reason to incorporate the BFG-scale aspect of it. We can't cut it out, but we can turn a blind eye and ignore the goony-ness without overwriting the GW concept.

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I'm sure it's useful, but actually it completely remove the dilemma between planet falling and using traditional transport. That's the design issue IMO.

No, it won't. The design philosophy of Epic is that new stuff is introduced in dedicated lists in which the new element can be incorporated in a way that's stylistically consistent. It won't be retrograded back into the codex list. The same dilemma will exist and the new list can have different restrictions introduced so it faces a different set of strategic choices.

40K is a different matter, of course, but "everything in one all-inclusive list" design decisions in 40K army structure don't obligate us to mirror them in Epic. How the 40K army structure works is only a loose consideration when determining style for Epic.

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Exactly, it can be used for Assault, that's precisely the idea. Not as a *transport option* that allow planetfall as well. The planet falling transport is already in, it's the Thunderhawk. Seeing marines re-embarking in their assault barge to skim a little farther and re assaulting doesn't feel like marines to me; I like the fact that they either fall from orbit in all-in assault or use APCs (rhinos, etc) to act more conventionally.

I think that's fine for conventional chapters. Most of the time, that's how they should act. I don't think that should preclude a specialist operation that makes use of something outside the standard. Black Templars deploying new recruits as Neophytes and Space Wolves' Blood Claws are similar in that respect.

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Giving them a skimmer APC would make a marine formation work like aspect warriors in wave serpents, it's certainly be useful but I would think of it as poor design at best. An artillery company and a formation of SHT would be useful too, would that be good design ?

Maybe. Just adding those things is not the determining factor. It depends on the overall list concept and whether what the list gains has sufficient tradeoffs that it changes the flavor and style in a way that adds real variety to the game experience.

Right now the "Apocrypha of Skaros" SM fan list is in development. It incorporates more servitor weaponry and field artillery but it has other drawbacks, like increased cost for air support. Overall, it feels more like an entrenched SM force of ground-pounders rather than the strike force flavor of the codex list. I think that's a fine design concept.


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 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:57 am 
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pics


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 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:58 am 
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wow learned how to post pics cool.sorry their in primer. they will be painted for the game on sun.


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 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:28 am 
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more pics


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 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:43 am 
Wow, that was fast!


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 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:33 am 
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Otterman wrote:
Wow, that was fast!


From my experience, FW are usually exceptional with their postage (timing wise) when they have stuff in stock

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 Post subject: Re: Caestus assault ram
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:53 am 
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frogbear wrote:
Otterman wrote:
Wow, that was fast!


From my experience, FW are usually exceptional with their postage (timing wise) when they have stuff in stock


Mistah Frogbear, is it just my eyes, or are those Epic models on display there?


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