Essentially its due tot he way shooting works.

In essence - roll to hit with all weapons in range. Then allocate hits to all units in range of at least one firing weapon.

Akin to flying power fists in engagements really.

the idea of that is core to this iteration of the list.

Its meant that unlike other armies that use supporting formations for assaults, Tau use supporting formations for firing.

However you should always work the factor in in your head I think - as you should balance things basaed on optimal use.

I hope all this is acedemic as the gun really doesn't need any boosts. As it is with proper use of markerlights its a 3+/4+ weapon.

To your example though if 2 formations of hammerheads plus skyrays let rip on an AT 4+RA target, after doubling! (so here a situation that most give up trying to get any hits in), each formation does 3 1 1/3 on average 4 1/3 blast markers and 1 1/12 dead tanks. Two would reduce the typical russ company to 9 vehicles and be on average between one tank off broken or broken outright. Cross fire them of course and they are slaughtered.
If you are advancing its now 5 1/3 blast markers and 1 1/3 dead tanks.

Also if you shoot up a Leman Russ company if it doesn't break it is down to tanks that can return fire. If it does break it is a 4+ or 5+ to come back. Personally if they break turn one or even two its probably playing for a draw for the guard.

This also ignores the best use of disrupt weapons - slaughtering broken troops. Break a Leman Russ comapny and your hammerheads will destroy in one salvo 5-6 tanks when doubling.



Actually the warlord if shielded wouldn't have taken much in the way of blast markers.

I'm coming round to the idea of the railgun on the hammerhead being potentially more powerful than the broadside one. It really is a crapload bigger.

You have to imagine that if any stands are removed from outside "actual weapon ranges" in situations like this that , as in an engage action , the units removed may not be just be outright kills.
Things like troops losing the will to fight,panic,fear,confusion or just becoming combat ineffective due to sudden loss of friendly troops nearby are a reason for them to be removed.

If players are finding it hard to understand when you're explaining it then taking a similar situation in an engage action (where 15cm range weapons, small arms, can kill units as far away as there are units in the formation being targeted in the engage) should make it easier to follow .

As an example,
Take a formation of 12 Ork stormboys strung out from corner to corner, diagonally across a table (could be over 200cm from end to end) which also have BM's .
A formation of 12 Fire Warriors engage one end of the ork formation bringing just 3 boys into FF range . Only 15cm range weapons are used (small arms range) and kill those 3 stands.
The Tau could win the assault by enough (with a good combat resolution roll along with +3 for kills,+2 for BM's,+1 for outnumbering) that they could be killing all the ork stormboys (hack downs). Even though they are out of LoS/LoF and are more than 15cm's away some even up to 150 cm's away all due to small arms weapons (15cm range).
In fact hack downs from engages don't have a limit on how far they can spread, unlike ranged fire.

So if those players can understand how an engage action using 15cm range weapons can account for units being removed from target formations as far away as the far corners of the table with no LoS/LoF. Then they should be able to understand how the same ranged weapons can account for units being removed within LoS/LoF due to pooling of hits.

And I firmly think that with proper use of Markerlights it should be 4+/2+. The Broadside and Hammerhead already have weapons with different names. The choice between taking Hammerheads or Broadsides should not be affected by the AT rating of the gun.

Balance them based on what makes them unique to one another. If it overpowers the Railgun compared to the Ion Cannon on Hammerheads, make the Ion Cannon the baseline and have the Railgun and/or Fusion turret as upgrades.

@ Zombocom - Thanks.

Thanks to you (dptdexys) and TRC (we certainly play the CC attacks pass onto other units within 15cm though even that was greeted with a raised eyebrow when I explained it) for giving me helpful ways to try and convey this game mechanic.

I do think there needs to be one clarification in your examples above dptdexys (where you stated that "15cm range weapons, small arms, can kill units as far away as there are units in the formation being targeted in the engage"), and that is that small arms attacks can only be applied to enemy units within 15cm after charging/countercharging has occured. Small arms hits cannot be applied to enemy units further away than 15cm. Only hackdown casualties can effect enemy units outside 15cm which represents the panic, fear, confusion that you mentioned earlier. With Engagements there is higher risk which justifies the high reward if an Enegagment is won. Simply rolling up a Fire Warrior Cadre to within 15cm of a strung out scout formation (where only one unit is within range of the AP attacks of the Tau) and killing them may be a hard pill to swallow for the opponent.

There is also the issue of Disrupt on the Pulse Carbines. The Disrupt weapons placing BM's on enemy units 80+cm away seems OTT.

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I have no problem with range stretching in general, but I'm not hugely keen on this specific example, where an AT range is being used to stretch the AP fire. I know it's technically correct by the rules as written, but it's hardly cricket.

Agreed. This is the issue I'm having when trying to explain certain rules to newer players...

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For the AT attack to be viable in that situation their would have to be a LV/AV in the formation and it would have had to be markerlit (only way a guided missile can fiire).

I would prefer if each pool of hits (AP and AT) were treated separately for range but at the moment those are the rules.

Also units don't fire at units. Formations fire at formations. You never target an individual stand.

This difference in the application of the rules may explain a little why you think the Tau shooting is underwhelming.

Well, just got done playing a game with the AP5+/AT3+ Hammerheads. They carried me that game, but not because they were so overpowering compared to Broadsides. It's because the Broadsides broke early and never recovered. The Hammerheads let me keep swinging.

I still lost 3-0 (Blitz, BTS, TSNP). I was playing Marines.

He had 8 stands of terminators (2 squads of 4, one with Chaplain, one with Captain). 4 ASsault marines with chaplain, 4 devastators. 2 thunderhawks, 2 squadrons of thunderbolts, and whirlwinds with a hunter.

I had the following:
Core Formations
Crisis Suit Cadre – 350pts
-Supreme Commander

Fire Warrior Cadre – 350pts
-x6 Fire Warriors, x3 Devilfish
-x2 Pathfinders, x1 Devilfish

Fire Warrior Cadre – 325pts
-x6 Fire Warriors, x3 Devilfish
-Sky Ray

Support Formations
Armored Interdiction Cadre – 450pts
-x6 Hammerheads w/ Railguns
-Skyray

Broadside Fire Support Cadre – 300pts
-x6 Broadsides

Recon Skimmer Group – 175pts
-x3 Piranhas
-x3 Tetras

Recon Skimmer Group – 175pts
-x3 Piranhas
-x3 Tetras

Skysweep Missile Defense Cadre – 275pts
-x3 Sky Rays

Kroot Kindred – 250pts
-Shaper
-x14 Kroot Carnivores

Air Caste Formations
Tigershark AX-1-0 Squadron – 350pts
-----------

I castled up, garrisoning the Broadsides, Kroot, and Recon forward amongst buildings in this city like area. I used Scouting kroot to form a barrier around my entire army, more or less. To push back teleporters and assaults.

I lost my Sky Rays early to the Reaver doubling through my scout screen into range. After that my AA was insufficient. High point included two CAP Thunderbolt squadrons flying through 2 sky rays worth of Flak without suffering damage and shot down my Tigersharks as they made their attack run on the Reaver. It went downhill from there.

I managed to kill basically everything that set it's boots on the ground. He had the Reaver, Thunderhawks, and Thunderbolts left at the end, along with the Chaplain Terminators broken.

I had the Pathfinder Fire Warriors, and 1 Recon left along with the broken Broadsides. He landed his Thunderhawk on my Blitz and sustained his Reaver to kill my Hammerheads. After that I had nothing left to threaten him with.

I played 6 Hammerheads for 350pts. They performed. The extra pip made a lot of difference actually. Gave him something to think about with the Reaver. I don't know if that is the right cost though. I can't say that they were better or worse than broadsides from this game. The Broadsides simply failed to contribute due to skulking around rolling '1's to rally.

They certainly weren't overpowering. Other thoughts though...

Kroot Hounds - why are they more expensive than regular kroot?

Fire Warriors get a Sky Ray upgrade. Screw pathfinders.

Speaking of Sky Rays, why is it's armor worse than a Hammerheads? Balance reasons?

I had to play very defensively this game. Not sure if there is anything to be done about this though. Until he committed his forces, I couldn't leave the Kroot Loop. Basically it was exactly like playing a slightly slower game of 40k. The first few turns were mainly Seeker Volleys guided by a forward ranging Recon. Horrible rolling on my part though. First turn Coordinated fire, both Recon and the Hammerheads to fire Seekers at the Whirlwinds. Got something like 3 hits, he saved them all. That wasn't a good start. I panicked and over-committed my Sky Rays which got them killed.

He took out my Kroot with an air assault, but then I killed the Assaults and Devastators. Then he teleported in the terminators, killed my SC and one fire warrior squad. Then I killed one squad with the Pathfinder-Warriors, he charged me. He wiffed, I managed to kill one. Won combat. Unfortunately he was fearless.

I could've focused on his Thunderhawks more. Oh well.

I'll try the Hammerheads at 6 for 325 next time. See what happens.

Well it does make me think of one consequence with them - with markerlights raising the to-hit to 2+ they become excellent pop up platforms, as now advancing to pop up doesn't reduce your firepower, making them a lot harder to target.

I would view Seekers as a bonus, not a mainstay unles you are using a lot of seeker formations like those speeder bike things, really the main guns should be in action from turn one!

If you are about online after the weekend I will attempt to demonstrate this