Oh they aren't raw conscripts. They have most likely had a lifetime of warfare and violence from a young age. I suspect it would be akin to Taliban engaging American troops (well imagine the Americans have a better rifle, not the M4 carbine, or just realise its all about support weapons ). Enough of them eventually win through, the yanks just have to ensure they can't mass enough to do so.




But here in Epic they are taken as part of the Tau as a whole




Then you hit the problem of Epic mechanics. A good firefight formation would kick the stuffing out of, say, a marine assualt formation. With numbers, save and a good firefight the basic mode of operation becomes an offensive engage. Guard on the other hand pfar prefer to recieve charges due to lack of armour. Do you really think you would have a Tau style force if your basic manouvre was to initiate engagements, in this case a close range firefight every chance you get? Or is it more tau like to shoot with all those pulse rifles and not take casualties in return?

In the fluff it is very rarely a firefight per say, its normally letting rip and taking minimal return fire.

And really - you can still make those desperate assaults. Its just now they are the sort of desperate things you describe not forgone concluesions Still though with better armour than everyones line troops bar marines they have a better chance than most to survive. Certainly elites such as Stormtroopers have the edge on them, but so they should frankly. I think its quite within how I imagine 40k that if stormtroopers engage Tau in a small arms firefight that they have the upper hand and force the Tau back, but of course take casualties in return. These chaps after all train to storm defended positions, the kind of firefights that can terminate with rifle butts hitting alien chins.
In 40k, reguardless of how they are written they are still tau line infantry. Up their abilities to match the fluff - fair enough. However then you are also looking at higher point costs as they are now akin to elites and your armies activations start to drop, potentially to a point where mechanics wise due to actiivations the tau are perpetually on the defensive, trying to resist the more activation numerous armies that are swarming around them.

The idea of epic is to give a feel overall of a different style at the end of the battle. Indivudal stats may not make sense, but you have to see them int eh context of the rules and the way other lists use those rules.



Well once I have finished painting my tourney army I could give you a game - however do you wish to use the current list or what?

And sent an email with the contents of said list to tournaments@epic-uk.co.uk before 17:00 Friday was what you meant to say Chris?

The list itself - or rather if it will be a marine or guard one, will have to wait till I get to a)unpack the models and b) see if I have brought the right ones with me from the house! Friday midnight might be possible though

List in full please.

And sorry for taking this thread well off topic!

It's easy to say that... after all, I could easily justıfy giving Ork Boyz units FF5 or even FF4, on the grounds that Shoota Boyz will statistically get slightly more kills per shooting phase than an Imperial Guardsman... ultimately you just have to admit that the 40k rules are kiddish and dumbed down, and you have to conceed that Epic is a chance to represent the army properly according to the background (Those parts of it that haven't of nessesity been skewed dramatically by 40k's predominance and thus most of the 'fluff' focusing on comparatively small Firefight type engagements rather than full battles).

Ultimately, due to 40k's (honestly quite crippled) rules system, a direct translation of the Tau would give you a FF3 army... but I'd contend that the Tau aren't even represented all that well in 40k, just like Marines are badly represented in 40k too (Their rules give you a semi-horde attrition army, not an elite strike force!).

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

agreed and let's not forget that 40k is there to sell models, not make a balanced game. Although Epic (or TL) was originally conceived to do the same, way back when, we now have the benefit of being free from the yoke of model release driven rules changes and can tweak lists based on balance and, to some extent, fluff.

I'm not talking about 40k rules, Evil and Chaos. I'm talking about basically every piece of fluff written about the Tau. I'm basically arguing that you guys don't have army down to how they behave in the fluff.

Imperial Armour III - Fire Warriors fighting Space Marines room to room in the outskirts of the Governor's Palace.

Imperial Armour Apocalypse - Specially chosen Fire Warriors, Crisis Suits, and Hammerheads (hmmm... where does that sound familiar from) in a Manta are sent directly from high orbit in the Manta to engage the enemy at close range, "into the teeth of the enemy." They even have a name for it.

Courage and Honor - Tactical Squads dueling Fire Warriors at close range. And the Fire Warriors were attacking. The power armor is what saves the Marines more than anything else.

By the way, on Marines - "They live, eat, and sleep warfare." The Shas do too. They've been doing it for almost as long as the Marines have. I'll go out on a limb and say that, day-to-day, a Shas trains more than/at least as much as a Marine does. Recall "Daily Rituals of a Space Marine."

4 Hours of Sleep a day - same as a Shas'la
16 hours a day devoted to various training rituals. - No exact numbers, but considering their behavior this doesn't seem unlikely.
1 hour a day eating. - Again, probably not much more than this.
3 hours a day praying. - Well, look at this. This is time that the Shas'la is either using to recover physically, or if they don't need to, train more. Considering the hypnotraining they receive, probably both at the same time.

Fire Warrior - seriously. They have Boarding Torpedoes. That they send Fire Warriors in. And they kick guys around pretty good. In addition to all the other information we're given about Tau society. If the Tau cared that god-awful much about the loss of life, they wouldn't use the Shas at all. They'd just use Drones. The Shas won't let them do that.

Hero of the Imperium - Pathfinders are going in hot into the tunnels under Gravalax. Tunnel fighting. About as brutal as combat can get. Ciaphus Cain comments on how each of them appears to be armed with a plasma gun, at least from the perspective of being shot at.

Apocalypse - The Shas are ready to lay down their lives at a moment's notice, but they don't do human wave attacks to try and simply beat the enemy into submitting. However, if it serves the long term goal they aren't averse to heavy casualties. For example, mauling a Company of marines is worth heavy casualties.

The Tau are averse to casualties in the same way the military is averse to casualties. They're an unfortunate fact of war. You try and minimize it, give your soldiers every advantage, but people are gonna die. It is a fact that the Shas grow up with, and frankly the fluff is pretty clear in stating they wouldn't have it any other way. They don't /want/ to die, but fighting is their duty. A duty they've shouldered for as long as recorded history on Earth. They've pretty much come to terms to that.

If the Tau commander is one that follows the Mont'ka school of thinking, then yes. The Fire Warriors should be engaging. It's a decisive hit, a /killing blow/. We know they have grenades. Flash grenades (photons) and EMP, which are described as being more or less the same as Eldar Haywire grenades. Sure, they're 'optional' in the Codex. But Frag/Krak grenades were 'optional' in the Marine codices until recently.

If you disagree - pull me sources proving me wrong.

Please someone start a FF based list somewhere! Then we can all work on that and leave 6.3 as a finished, if not ideal in some players view, list.

Please lets not continue a debate that has ran ever since Jervis came up with the idea that the Tau shouldn't be another FF list.

Please, pretty please......

Quite.

Tau 6.x provide a truly unique army style that's unseen elsewhere in Epic.

If you truly feel strongly about it, write a list and post it in the general 'Epic Armageddon Rules' sub forum (Not this one as this sub forum is for the NetEA Tau army list). We've been working on the FF5 Tau army for 5 years, and look to be finishing development of the list in a few more months.

I'm not interested in the 2 more years development and testing that a FF4 or FF3 (A direct translation from the 40k stats tells you that FW's are better at FF than Marines after all!) Tau army would reqire, especially as that would in my personal opinion reflect the background less-well than the current list.

FF stats don't simply represent combat power, but also training, combat style preference, and other even more ephemeral factors such as 'a poor ability to focus eyes quickly at short ranges' (Which the Tau have).

Oh and Apolcalypse formations force compositions rarely make sense, and the provided background texts are generally written with 40k's absurd and crippled Apocalypse rules system in mind. In other words, it's written to sell craploads of toy soldiers, not provide a useful background source.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

there is someone doing that Meph, you just have to know the right person to ask...

Good, and post it somewhere so we can all whine in that thread too

you'll have to ask the person who wrote and whine to him, it's not my list to spread around. PM me if you're interested.

I don't want a sweeping change of the list. I want FF4 Fire Warriors, and less ranged fire, if any at all. Everything else I can get behind. Well, Hammerhead Railguns I scratch my head at a bit. I'd prefer AT3+, simply because even without markerlight support a Railgun > Battlecannon at anti-tank. Similarly, Battlecannon > Submunition at anti-infantry. I could even provide a physics reason for the disparity between the Broadside railgun and Hammerhead railgun strength if anyone cares.

Stealth Suits get a ranged attack because they have a bunch of shots and they ambush, but they lack the numbers and support to press home an attack. I'd like the Fusion Blaster represented as part of their 'saboteur' role. Of course, these are the older XV-15 instead of the XV-25. I can dig it. They're definitely skirmishers though, and wouldn't stick around for an engagement.

Crisis Suits, I can dig them not being good at engagements. At least, on their own. They are an elite, but small band of individuals. Better to use the range and strategic mobility afforded them to act in support of the real engagement forces (Fire Warriors). Plus, as I said, the weapons that would be good for 'firefight' crisis suits aren't the ones represented here. Burst Cannons, Flamers, etc. I like this direction.

XV-88s, obviously aren't FF experts. Don't even need to go here, really.

Pathfinders, well... I'll be honest, I don't think these guys should have a shooting attack at all. I think they should be dedicated markerlight troops, with an upgrade to Railrifle snipers if you wanted. And armor 6+. They don't have the shoulder guard that the Fire Warriors have. That's a huge bit of protection lost.

Gun Drones are fine in 6.3. They got FF5+ right? On the dot.

Kroot... I'm satisfied, really. CC4+ on the regular guys, ok. I can swing that, although my instinct is CC5+. But Orks are CC4+, and the Orks regard the Kroot as a 'good fight'.

Manta is cool, with FF4+ and a Markerlight. Barracuda is cool. They're about par with Thunderbolts right? Looks that way to my eye. And that is where they should be. I would like to see Remora drone fighters. They would be similar to Vultures. One turn of great firepower, then mostly markerlight and burst cannon harassment. Dunno if that could be balanced, but they are a fluffy unit that feature prominently in several Tau pieces. Don't need them though. Just a fluffy unit I'd like to see.

Tetras are fine. Twin pulse rifles should be better shooting, but eh. Minor. Very minor. Speaking of Markerlight units - Seeker Missiles are AT6+. Is that improved by the presence of Markerlights?

Piranhas are fine.

Really, my only complaint at the moment is the Fire Warrior. Is this truly such an intractable issue? I can solidly get behind everything else. If I made a different list, that would probably be the only difference.

Of course, however, the unit types just need tailoring. I have no problem with Broadsides - in fact they're the one unit that actually performs as it should IMO.

The Railgun Hammerhead, however, is another issue. As you know I don't/didn't care about points drops on these if they don't provide what's needed. The broadsides already have a different naming convention so giving the Railheads (minus the twin linked to hit stats of the broadsides) a better to-hit stat (3+) isn't much of a problem IMO plus it's already been tested in previous versions. EDIT - That or disrupt for the railgun as mentioned previously.

The Stealth suits had an initiative and weapon stat drop and their points value never changed so now they're under done. They don't provide the hit they used to when it's needed and at the same price as before.... Not sure I see your view with 2+ o/w. That's a 15cm o/w BTW... You also need to move up within 15cm to shoot so you rarely get to o/w and smart players don't get within 15cm so avoid your o/w anyway. Sure you can teleport in and sit still but you often end up with BM which are harder to remove with a 2+ initiative as well.

The Fusion head now seems good at 4+. I'm happy to see that adjustment. My only concern is now there's no incentive to take Railheads. At least the Fusion head can deal with heavy armour targets now and the Broadsides can shoot the long distant AT fire.

Fire Warriors - We're set on a "no more playtesting new ideas" path so nothing's going to change with these guys so there's no point debating it any further really. Writing up a new list that no one wants to playtest - heck people don't seem to playtest many lists lately - is just wasting time and effort. Plus I have another list in development for people to ignore