The statement "a engagement is a game of 40K" is an often used statement and quite misleading. To me its just there to give some sort of scale to the action and results of an encounter in one game shouldn't be used to draw conclusions in another.

No, that was just a couple of batreps where I forgot to bring my terrain box along. We normally play with the regulation 12 pieces, or even more.

Also, IIRC, I won several of those "low terrain" games. :-)


I never leave home without a Thunderbolt squadron to support my IG... but does anyone ever take any more air power than that?

With my Marines, Thunderbolts and 1-2 Thunderhawks, again pretty typical.


He tends to start with 2 Broadside formations on overwatch, and advances under their cover knowing that he can control that area of the board until I have done something about the broadsides.


He's gone off those lately, generally only taking 1 recon formation, but 2-3 pathfinder formations instead.


Yes when playing Steel Legion I normally bring one.


IIRC his name is Joe J. and his tournament record is pretty damn great: 43 wins, 13 losses, 14 draws.

And yeah, he's only lost one playtest game with his Tau, to me.

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I do know that the Tau force described would get absolutely annihilated by the Marine force in that picture, if we're talking background.

Marneus Calgar (Who would of course be leading the attack) would probably punch the Crisis Suit Commander to death with his giant fists, too.

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Aye, 90% of both sides tends to die in an average game of 40k. If that were the case in Epic you'd never want to Engage anything.

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Well I *am* saying they were wrong, or worse than your opponent's at any rate.

======================

Onxy, I wrote a big reply, but it's pointless posting it because circular debate is fruitless, so I have this to say instead:

If you want a "Firefighty" Tau list, write one.
Post playtest reports of you using it.
Maybe people will pick it up and start playing it.

But I think the current NetEA Tau list is good.
I think it is a good reflection of what the Tau are in the background (Which is more important than the 40k rules, which are pretty fuzzy and written for kids, after all).
And I think it brings a unique list style to Epic.

So I won't be supporting FF4+ Fire warriors, and MWFF Crisis Suits, etc. until I see a whole bunch of playtest reports showing how awesome (and true to the background) (and balanced) such a list style is.

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I don't want to write another Tau list as the list has already been usurped once before and I'm not interested in diluting playtests for Honda's list.

It doesn't matter if anyone but Honda won't be supporting certain spit-balled ideas because only Honda is the army champion.

I did find stompzilla's 2nd last sentence quite interesting (half way down the previous page). I'm not alone in my thoughts here. It would be good for all to remember that. I'm not on a crusade.

Ben, I wonder if you understand just how confronting you can come across at times. Criticising playtest tactics is not constructive and since I'm over 40, I don't need to deal with that sort of silliness.
I was the one who suggested the Engagement to the Marine player. It was the beginning of the 2nd turn. It was the first time I'd filled the Manta up with transported formations. It occured to me that with the help of 2 squads of teleporting Terminators and Doubling the beefed up Tactical formation into support range, the Marines would be in a great position. We needed to see just how effective the Tau would be in a fire fight. My opponent thought it would be suicide considering the supposed fire power of the Tau at short range. Needless to say, he was plesantly suprised at the outcome. In susequent games, Engagements held no fear for him and he went on to beat me 6 times in a row. Some of those victories were the result of interesting army lists but then we were just playtesting a new list not competing to the death in a gladiatorial arena.

Oh, and I and thought that the "engagement is a game of 40K" comment is actually taken from the back of the rulebook. Mine's down at the game club so I can't confirm that.

Fine, I tried once again. I really don't enjoy the confrontation when the Tau are debated so I'll just butt out and let Honda sort it out. I have plenty on my Epic Armageddon plate right now.

Good to see you back TRC!

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Yes I have taken up residence in the MoD now, no more helping the worlds poor, unless of course they require arming and training!

Umm, the Crisis suits used to have MWFF in 4.4. I'm pretty sure there were batreps for it.

Stompzilla's been saying that a fair bit lately. I've noticed.

When I was first on this board ~4 years ago, I used to disagree with the majority opinion that Tau FF ratings should be artificially restricted (Yes, it was the majority opinion then, too). I wanted FF4+ Fire Warriors, and a FF3+ Manta. I'd argue in favour of them, when there was a debate on that topic.

What I didn't do is disrespect people, and call them names. ***


Analysing playtest tactics is very important, or we'll learn nothing at all about how the army operates.
That's why you post a battle report, to show how you used tactical manoever to out-play the opponent. Otherwise you might as well just post the final result.

And I agree with you that the Tau used to underperform in Firefights. That's why I argued for points drops (To give the Tau more units==more FF attacks) and an improvement to the Manta. The last game you played was in what, 6.1?


And yeah, I can be confrontational. But that's quite different to being hostile.

I do my best to argue on logic, not emotion.

Is it personally insulting to say that poor tactics (Unsuitable to the army at hand) were used in a battle report?

Or is it just an impartial statement of fact?


Objectively, you set 1500pts of FF5+ units against 1700pts of FF4+ units (With a little scattering of MWFF in there too)... so objectively the result (FF5+ units lose) does not surprise... right?

Now you can argue that you think the 5+ units should be 4+, but returning to one now-outated example ain't getting anything done.
Your batrep is part of the reason behind why the Manta got a FF4+ rating, after all!




It is, but I believe the word "roughly" is likely to be in there too.
It's not meant to be taken 100% literally, anyway, is my contention.


================


I'll say it again.
If you want to show that your idea of how the Tau operate is a better idea, you should post some battle reports showing your unit stats in action.
That is not "usurping" the list.
That's giving people a choice.

Don't impugne my actions (Which were vocally supported by Honda), please.
Passive-agressive personal insults aren't going to get anything done except bring personal feelings into debates about how best to write rules for toy soldiers.

You don't like these rules?
Fine, write your own.
Maybe put them online, if you feel like it.
Maybe people will love them.
Maybe Honda will love them.
That doesn't make you a "usurper", it makes you a guy who had an idea that people liked.


If you don't have the resources or the time to write a list yourself, send me the stat changes you'd like done and *I'll* post up your alternative list for you.


Yeah, they certainly did.
Ryan's Tau used to regularly beat my Marines in Firefights back then.

MWFF5+ and a 3+AS being statistically better than FF4+ and a 4+AS, at least in straight opposition. Add a few Drones for Outnumbering bonuses and the Tau used to be better at the Engagement game than Marines.



***Except for Hena, who I once called "unbelievable". And I regret that most deeply.

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Well the drones are gone from that equation at least

Of course, we all really know that the 1700pts of Tau (cost at the time of the playtest game) really only had to defeat 450pts of Marines (Hvy Tac + SC) to win the Engagement (as per 1.12.5 Resolve Attacks).

We have all now seen that that is basically impossible with the present list.
Does that sound right? If we were talking Orks then maybe but we're talking Tau who are specialists are dealing with opposition at FF range.

There's more spin in this discussion (admittedly on all sides) than in the present Australian general election campaign...

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the manta was never really meant to be a dedicated transport, in the fluff it's a dropship away from the front lines and brought in against titans as there was no other option available*


But on the flipside, in shooting you can never die (until your opponents turn)
Even if your shooting goes tits up you wont break

This really is the important bit i think


* This is why the whiteshark ---> AX were created, both fluff and gamewise

Just as a side note, had the Manta in the previous example done a standard "Ground Attack Unload", rather than an air assault, the result should have been something like..

Crisis Suits
5.83` AP hits
2.5 MW hits

HammerHeads
2.66` AP/AT hits or 2MW hits (dependent on configuration)

Fire Warriors + Pathfinders
11.66 AP hits (most Disrupt)

With that volume of fire, you'ld probably fire the Manta's Ion Cannons on AT, resulting in
0.833 TK
2 AT hits
0.5 AP hits.

That should statistically wipe out a Tac Formation with 2 Crusaders, and then some.

To me, the initial argument just doesn't seem to hold up. It's like me saying Whirlwinds are crap because when I assaulted my opponent's Spirit Host with them, they got smashed.

Morgan Vening

Onxy starts from the position that the Tau should firefight as well as Marines, so I don't think showing what he should have done to win the game will make him satisfied, as he flat out disagrees with the ıdea that the Tau should be a FF5 army. He wants to firefight Marines and win, which means FF4's and MWFF all-round would be nessesary.

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Anyone else suprised that 1700pts worth of Tau, would able to shot at a 450pt formation and kill it?
Sorry Morgan but with respect, I'm not suprised at all.

To be honest, I'm getting pretty tired of people telling me how to win a game of Epic.
I'm certainly not the best player in the world and I'm certainly not the worst. I know how to play Epic and win games.

Instead of trying to tell me what I should've done, how about explaining how, in game terms, 1700pts of Tau couldn't kill 450pts of Marines in a Fire fight engagement?

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