This seems to be (and always has been) some what of a contentious issue within the tau list. Trying to get a unique list that acts and feels how the tau fight in the fiction, and whilst maintain balance, has always been the goal.

I'm not saying that the current list must change, but rather thinking hypothetically, if the list does change what could we do. As there seems to be a lot of ideas circulating that have been done before (and consequently discarded.)

Previous ideas
0. Currently - Low FF, increase in ranged infantry weapons
----- Simulates how the tau attack other formations without risking their lives
----- Feels un-tau like when they get massacred in FF engagements

1. Give tau defensive fire. - Essentially this gives any tau formation over-watch when being assaulted and was coupled with low FF values.
----- I think this was discarded as it was too powerful when intermingled formations were assaulted - and let to formations being very intermingled as well.

2. Discretion Over Valour - Tau units not in base to base contact are allowed to counter charge away from an assaulting unit, if this means that no Tau are with 15cm of the engaging unit the assault does not happen.
---- ??

3. Higher FF value, -2 to engagement
----- Doesn't quite feel right that the tau are great at something but don't use that potential.

[hl]

So 4 different rules that have been used in one combination or another in previous lists, all of which have been discarded for one reason or another (or are being rejected currently ^ ^ )

What completely new ideas can we think of that might work?

N1. Defensive fire - When a tau formation is assaulted by an enemy formation it gains +1 to its FF values
---- akin to the rule in V1. of the list but not quite so powerful

N2. Give small-arms (extra attack +1) to some units profiles (or some-such special rule allowing them to roll 2 dice for FF)
---- Statistically pretty much the same as just giving them +2 to FF (for a FW formation)
---- Too powerful, makes them into a FF army.

N3. In FF roll 2 dice pick highest
---- Statistically almost the same as giving the units +1 to FF (a little greater)

Thoughts? Comments? Other alternatives?

Tim

I'd love to be able to take a valuable part in the Tau talk currently going on, but I have no experience with Tau...so I just read.

I can however comment on the above as no specialised Tau knowledge is needed.

I think this would be way too confusing. When speed rolling multiple units FF attacks, it would be so confusing to keep track of which two dice belonged to which unit as to be impractical. Taking the higher half of the die rolled could mean you are choosing two dice from the same unit's FF attack.

Back when I was a newbie to the forum, I used to be on the side of giving the Tau better Firefight abilities.

However, over the years I changed my mind, realising that a low-FF Tau army would bring something truly unique to Epic (Which is of course why Jervis nerfed their FF ratings). And so I stand now, staunchly in favour of the low-FF army style.

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How about Markerlights giving +1 to Tau FF values? If not automatically then a Markerlight unit's formation has to be on Overwtach/Sustain to give a friendly unit +1FF?

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Instant re-balancing needed, being as most Tau formations run around with Markerlights now. Ie: Points values would need to go up to Space Marine levels at the least.

Do you really want Tau armies to be smaller than Space Marine armies?

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If so many feel so strongly start another list. With the number of people that state this is their preference you should have a valid body of play testers.

The 6.3 list has been developed other the past 5 years with the premise that it would not provide a FF/CC oriented force. I too argued against this for a long time. Now having played both with and against the list I can say it does provide a different challenge.

In the end, I truly just want the list to do what it's supposed to do - shoot things to death.

At present it doesn't and the half-way house of nerfed FF and under par shooting (at least in terms of the supposed "Shooty-death" theory) equals a fairly flat list IMO. Stick with the low FF sure - I'll suck that up - but give the list back its teeth in the shooting stakes.

The reduction for the ML changes really hurt. I seem to do almost half the damage I used to with shooting and now the only units i have to crack RA/WE units are the Manta (which I don't see myself using), the A-X-1-0 (which i truly dislike in terms of cost and being a weak bomber which needs several hundred points of AA support etc just to keep it in the game) and fusion-heads - thankfully they're getting better to-hit values so I'm looking forward to trying them at least.

Everything else bar Broadsides is just meh, IMO. The reason Broadsides look so good is because they do what their sticker says - they are scary shooters!. It's why I will probably follow Ryan's lead and use 2 broadsides instead of Rail-heads. Even 50 points cheaper they still don't do the job I expect them to. Sure the extra points are nice but at the end of the day, they are glorified APC killers not tank hunters and that's disappointing as that's why you would buy them.

I'd almost prefer to see us lose the ML +1 and give back the earlier to hit stats (v4.4??) and maybe just make the ML have a special effect like simple firing out of LOS for missiles.

EDIT- What about disrupt for the Tau? Would large numbers of disrupt with better to hit help them break formations in replacement for lack of FF etc?

You would say that Fire Warriors are currently "just meh" ??


Oh, like Fire Warriors and Pathfinders?

The Tau have more Disrupt in a typical army than any other race's army.

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Yep except on tanks too. If we won't give Rail guns Lance, then Disrupt isn't too far fetched to give the weapon a half-decent ability. It's not actually causing heavier damage, it's more a case of precise hits making tank crews button down etc.

So...? Why couldn't it apply? Just because "no other army" does it, doesn't sound like a valid reason not to try if it will give the Tau an edge for their shooting. It wouldn't have to apply to every single unit type just the ones like Rail heads etc.

I'm not ga-ga over them, no. See my post in the other thread regarding how they seem to function versus armoured (or cover saves) opposing infantry....

To get there, they need to double to be swift and in your face. Thus reducing to hit values. With a ML they then gain that back but firing into cover reduces it once more.

To apply great shooting results (as replacement for FF) they need to be a swollen maxed-out formation with an additional ML unit built in most times to do much damage (a comparitive FF assault win level).

Then they're left high and dry for a counter attack as they aren't Eldar with Hit and Run, so the theory of swift precise attacks goes out the window.

I agree that FW's usually hit on 5 and 6's and at times they are a bit less than stellar but if advancing or on o/w a normal mech formation normally has 9 AP4+, 6 AP5+, 1 AP5+ ignore cover, and 5 AT5+ shots that is devastating and can stop your opponent wanting to get too close. But their usefulness comes down to how you utilize them and what else is in your army. Do you use range stretching? RAW (perhaps not as intended) allow guided missiles to greatly extend their range if ML. If you are only within 1 base at 30cm or 15cm it greatly effects the amount of damage you take from counter attacks. You need to be very careful and patient with them only committing to attack already activated formations of staying within an o/w bubble. Also remember epic is won by achieving victory conditions it is not a killing contest. I have found by changing my tactics that the Tau list is actually fairly powerful. They are fast and can force your opponent to fight you on your terms while still doing damage.

The list I usually take now is.

FW+ Skyray
FW+ Skyray
Crisis+ SC (Usually spends game on o/w on my blitz)
Broadsides (Spend 1.5 turns on o/w garrisoned off blitz)
Broadsides (Spend 1.5 turns on o/w garrisoned off blitz)
Pathfinders
Pathfinders
Recon (5/1 or 3/3 Piranha/Tetra split if I need a scout screen. Again spends most of game on o/w and spends turn 3 objective grabbing/contesting)
Manta (actually a very good option now perhaps still 50 points too expensive)
Barracudas

The entire point of the list is to attempt to keep your opponent at arms length until you absolutely need to advance beyond the bubble in turn 3. I use the recon at times to extend the bubble by advancing turn 1 and going on o/w turn 2. I'm not sure if a more mobile Tau list is viable at the moment. I haven't been able to get one to work.

I agree that's certainly a possibility. One I kinda like, even.

Broadsides would definitely have to go up in cost, and it'd leave the Ion Cannon Hammerhead looking even more inferior to the other two, mind you.


I think a list with 5 FW formations in Devilfishes screened by 3 Pathfinder formations to provide Markerlights/Coordinated Fire orders would be brutal. And only 1650pts for those 8 formations.

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Do we really need to do this again? I used to be in favour of a FF tau list but what we have now is a unique list not a mixture of SM+eldar which is what FF tau would have felt like and, more importantly, we have a list which is a handful of tweeks away from being a finished list.

So de we really need to have this argument for the 37th time?

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It's the annual Tau tradition...
...newbies/returning players come to the forum, and wonder the age-old question...

...I'd be worried for the state of the community if we *didn't* have this discussion every so often, as that'd mean no more new/returning blood was coming to TacComms!



***Pretty sure I posted something like this last time we had the Tau FF debate, too ***

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If the Ion Hammerhead becomes sufficiently inferior, however, you can make it the base and have the others as upgrades.

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