There were also a few interesting notes from one of your games with Ryan (not sure if this is one of the 5 wins).
You only took 2 Hydras (and a T/bolt squadron). Did you know you were playing against Tau? If so, you were very lucky that the Tau player didn't bring much air power (did you know you were playtesting the Manta before the game? ). Do you not think that TRC's theory of needing 500pts of AA is very useful (especially against Tau)? If you knew a bit about what you were facing before the game, that might bring the outcome in to question a little bit.

Failing 4 activations in a row in the 2nd turn must've shaped the game for you a little bit aswell.

I note that you still thought it was a great game which is the most important thing. Good onya for still helping with the Tau list and for developing proxies for Tau players to use (very admirable indeed)!

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Yup. That's the kind of list I generally take with my IG.

You'll note on the uk tournament records site that I generally finish up in the top 1/3rd when using that kind of IG list (4th or 5th is my habitual spot).


I knew that I was facing Tau, which is why I took the list I wrote up for the last tournament I intended to attend (Which, regrettably, I couldn't make it to). But it was a list intended for blind play at the time it was written, is my point.


I think 500pts, whilst it does shut down Marine air assault armies completely, is overkill.

I only take a single Hunter and a Tbolt squadron with my current Marine list too (I only have 3000pts painted so it's the same every time!), and I have a pretty good record with them too (More wins than losses overall), including having used the list against some very good uk tourney players (For example, I'm apparently the only person who's beaten the Tau army of Yme-Loc the EpicUK Tau list supremo...).


It didn't help... but that's what sometimes happens when your opponent peppers your whole army with BM's (Ie: Ryan wasn't entirely unresponsible for that happening!).

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So anyway, I still think Broadside formations are too cheap and need to go up to 325pts.

Ryan will be along at some point to disagree. :-)

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So far with 6.03 I've beaten marines twice, IG Twice, and Eldar with a close game possible very small victory but more likely a draw against Chaos (0-0 on turn four and we didn't bother attempting to rally). Each of the victories has been a very close win for the Tau, there have been no blowouts. Additionally many of them have resulted from me changing my tactics rather than developments in the list.

All of the games have been tight and the Manta has been a major factor in me winning. It is still possibly 50 points overpriced for its abilities and it has yet to face a high number of TK attacks. In all the games it rarely gets its points in kills but its mere presence makes the Tau army more effective as my opponent spends 2.5 to 3 turns shooting at it to achieve BTS which enables the rest of the Tau army to do their damage. It is also useful in an Assault so can be used to shore up an exposed flank in the deployment phase. The rest of the army appears to be fine at the moment but I would still like to see a different approach taken to the recon formation than raising its cost.

Broadsides probably don't need a points raise just yet 50 points each seems about right really, it would be better to consider a change to HH stats in some way to make them more appealing.

The Tau list in my opinion at the current time is still slightly underpowered but in my games the Manta effectively papered over the cracks and allowed it to punch above its weight.

Interesting stuff.

When I've used the Manta (before the latest changes) it has played a big part in the outcome aswell.
In general, when it was ignored, I had a hard time winning the game (as the rest of the army was beaten up and the Manta can't win a game on it's own). Then when my opponents figured out to just FF the Manta to death it got harder again (hopefully this will be better now that the Manta has FF4+ & Fearless).

Jstr19 - Do you ever use the Manta's transport ability at all or is it just a gunship for you?

I think Broadsides are brilliant at what they do but I seem to have moved away from them to have a more mobile army.

HH could get FF4+ to make them more appealing... what can I say, I really think the whole Tau army should be better at this.

I definitely agree that the best way to control the Piranha spam is to lock the Recon group to 3 of each unit and keep it at 150pts. Increasing the cost does not solve the problem at all.

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Do that (FF4+ on lots of things) and we'll have to put points costs up so much you'll have less troops on the table than Space Marines. That ain't right.

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Onyx: IMO the Manta is neither a gunship or a transport. It doesn't have the firepower to be a proper gunship and it lacks the armour (or thick rear armour) to be a transport. Generally the manta doesn't want to get close to its opponents because of cross fire. It has currently two problems one: no thick rear armour and two: an extremely detrimental critical. These I feel should be looked at.

In game in my experience it forces your opponent to deal with it. Not because its inherently dangerous but because they will find it very difficult to win if they don't. It denies them usually three victory conditions No unbroken enemies in your half, BTS and Three objectives in your own half. Leaving only Blitz and Two objectives in your opponents half. Try winning when you only have two victory conditions open to you against your opponents five. That's the Manta's strength at the moment IMHO.

So in other words no different to any other races medium to large Titan? Job done then.

Agreed.



A Reaver doesn't have thick rear armour. So no difference there.

A Reaver's critical hit result is 1/6 DESTROYED and 2/6 extra damage (With a roll again the following turn which could again DESTROY the Reaver). In comparison the Manta's critical hit result isn't all that terrible.

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But a reaver has shields and a 4+ AS.

And a Reaver doesn't have a 5+ inv. save against TK hits. or TK weaponry. Or 90cm range weapons.

You can't just focus on the weaknesses and claim that makes it flatly inferior.

A Manta is a superb light war engine hunter, as it has the conventional weapons to strip any shields and then a Volcano Cannon to kill the target.

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A Reaver can hide, re-charge its shields, get -1 to hit from cover, has a better AS, more firepower, and can ignore its first four hits.

The Manta has a TK shot, ML's, planetfall and transport capacity it will rarely use.

This makes me view the Manta as inferior to the Reaver.

They will lay exactly the same ammount of FF hits in an engagement.
A Manta can never be CC'd (Nice against Terminators! Or War Engines with CCW's!)
A Manta has 8DC to outnumber with in Engagements (No other 650pt War Engine has so many DC).
A Manta has better weapons when hunting War Engines than a Reaver (Which is better at hunting AV's)
A Manta has 50% more range on its main gun than a Reaver's maximum range.
A Manta can see over (nearby) buildings so as to shoot at enemies.
A Manta is a type of big fish.

From all of those factors, including the final one, I conclude that a Manta is about equal to a Reaver.

Job done!

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Between what you and I both posted I still can't see the Manta as equal to a Reaver. Essentially it is less survivable (except in CC) but can shoot at things slightly further away.

It's about the same in survivability, and that includes if it takes a critical hit (Because a critical hit is a very serious thing for a Reaver too). As you well know, from our testing of the Manta-vs-Reaver, even with a free SC the Reaver couldn't beat the Manta.

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