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[UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1

 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:30 pm 
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I don't mind having different Tyranid armylists where only different models/stats are used. A problem i would see if those different armylists also have different special rules which are supposed to represent the same abilities (eg Spawning, Synapses, etc).

Ideally each variant army would have a totally different play style. But i'm totally satisfied if there would be "only" a difference in outlook of the army. For example: the way formations are composed.
Scions of Iron armylist does the same. You can build a ground pounding Space Marien army with the rulebook armylist. But the Scions of Iron simply do this better (even if you don't use the new units like Land Raider Crusaders, etc).

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 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:34 pm 
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Besides which my own Churoninx list is a hypocritical divergence from the 'core tyranid list' much like the other contendors for 'core tyranid list' I argued against...


Indeed.

===================

I see nothing wrong with variant lists introducing some variant unit types.

Some, like the Harpies, already have good proxiesavailable.

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I don't envy the list writer who intends to keep up with GW's 40k collectable model game, Epic in it's current lists for Marines, IG, Orks, etc has managed to not pander to current 40k model bonanza's


Incorrect.

Fact is, several of the official lists had some updates applied to bring them up-to-date when they were released for Epic:Armageddon.

Eldar lost Harlequins as they weren't in 40k at that time.
Orks lost Weirdboyz as they were restricted to Feral Orks in 40k at that time.
IG had Vultures and Valkyries added as they were new to 40k at the time.

So it's an established precendent that a list can be updated when it's created for Epic, (In the case of the Eldar, removing the Harlequins from the plastic frame would have cost several thousand otherwise unnessesary pounds) and I see no reason not to update just because 40k is a "model collecting hobby" (So is Epic!).

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos on Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:37 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Some, like the Harpies, already have good proxiesavailable.


You've got it wrong, these aren't Harpies, they're winged Tyrants. :P


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 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:39 pm 
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Pretty sure Winged Tyrants are being scratchbuilt somewhere, and they'll look much more like the Tyrants we expect... :-)

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 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Scions of Iron armylist does the same. You can build a ground pounding Space Marien army with the rulebook armylist. But the Scions of Iron simply do this better (even if you don't use the new units like Land Raider Crusaders, etc).


Aye, but in reverse you can't make as powerful an Air Assault list with Scions, both lists have different 'main' playstyles.
My worry with various Tyranid lists that exist primarily to support different model ranges are that they will generally have the same playstyle (fast, stabby horde) with a few token stat line differences, or worse they will go out of their way to tinker with all the Special Rules to be radically different for the sake of it.

I believe it is possible to produce a Tyranid 'core' list that has a selection of slightly abstracted unit types (gun beast, combat beast, gun war engine, combat war engine, etc), which makes balancing a lot easier, that the Tyranid player can then 'slot' their model range into. Indeed, the newer invented models such as Tervigons could be easily substituted in a 'counts as' for one of these abstract stat lines.
Rather than having to keep up with every new model produced or the Tyranid ethos of constant evolution, you make the brackets for a particular stat line abstract enough that the Tyranid player can fulfil it with a selection of existing model choices.
In much the same way the Ork player doesn't try to keep up with the dozens of potential Ork vehicle variants with minor negligible stat changes and special rules, they have an abstract 'Ork Gunwagon' that allows the Ork player to use their selection of models.

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Some, like the Harpies, already have good proxiesavailable.


Do you mean the Harridan? As it exists in the lists already, they are nice models for it (if a little small). I'll admit I haven't kept up with 40k Codex's, so are Harpies a new model type for Tyranids?
Besides which I see nothing wrong with variant lists introducing new models if the variant list can justify it's existence as a new playstyle not just to shoehorn in the new model.

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Fact is, several of the official lists had some updates applied to bring them up-to-date when they were released for Epic:Armageddon.

Eldar lost Harlequins as they weren't in 40k at that time.
Orks lost Weirdboyz as they were restricted to Feral Orks in 40k at that time.
IG had Vultures and Valkyries added as they were new to 40k at the time.

So it's an established precendent that a list can be updated when it's created for Epic


The thing you miss out is that GW had the means, motive and will to produce a full and readily available model range for their new Epic lists. Tyranids (and indeed all Epic from now on) are in the situation where there is no full model range from GW, players will either hunt down the old models, or track down alternative model ranges- I'd argue the best solution to this is to create a list that allows both of these players to use it, getting the 'feel' of Tyranids regardless of their model choice.


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 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Why are Raveners particularly susceptible to clipping?

Note that part of the raveners' appeal in 9.2.1 resulted from a fairly controversial decision to make warriors LV instead of infantry. As such, raveners gained the distinction of being the cheapest available meat shield for the 'nids cheapest synapse unit.

Having been nerfed from one side, guants were then buffed with a psuedo-expendable rule: count their losses as 1/2 in an assault.


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 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:10 pm 
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Jeridian wrote:
Quote:
Some, like the Harpies, already have good proxiesavailable.


Do you mean the Harridan? As it exists in the lists already, they are nice models for it (if a little small). I'll admit I haven't kept up with 40k Codex's, so are Harpies a new model type for Tyranids?

Harpies are a carnifex-sized beast with wings.

Quote:
Quote:
Fact is, several of the official lists had some updates applied to bring them up-to-date when they were released for Epic:Armageddon.

Eldar lost Harlequins as they weren't in 40k at that time.
Orks lost Weirdboyz as they were restricted to Feral Orks in 40k at that time.
IG had Vultures and Valkyries added as they were new to 40k at the time.

So it's an established precendent that a list can be updated when it's created for Epic


The thing you miss out is that GW had the means, motive and will to produce a full and readily available model range for their new Epic lists. Tyranids (and indeed all Epic from now on) are in the situation where there is no full model range from GW, players will either hunt down the old models, or track down alternative model ranges- I'd argue the best solution to this is to create a list that allows both of these players to use it, getting the 'feel' of Tyranids regardless of their model choice.

I think we both know that the community will find a way to proxy or scratchbuild to fill gaps.

But, I do support an "old models list" (Hive Fleet Behemoth) and a "new models list" (Hive Fleet Leviathan) so that if someone doesn't want to scratchbuild or proxy, then they'll have a list to use that will fit their old model collection perfectly.


=====

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 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:13 pm 
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Carrington wrote:
Why are Raveners particularly susceptible to clipping?


They're not particularly susceptible to clipping as such, I just think they're more susceptible to clipping than Termagants (for the same number of points) who benefit from the "half casualties" rule.

But they're certainly a lot less susceptible to clipping than Hormagaunts, Lictors or Stealers. :)


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 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:14 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I do support an "old models list" (Hive Fleet Behemoth) and a "new models list" (Hive Fleet Leviathan) so that if someone doesn't want to scratchbuild or proxy, then they'll have a list to use that will fit their old model collection perfectly.


Amen!

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 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:40 pm 
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Quote:
But, I do support an "old models list" (Hive Fleet Behemoth) and a "new models list" (Hive Fleet Leviathan) so that if someone doesn't want to scratchbuild or proxy, then they'll have a list to use that will fit their old model collection perfectly.


We may have to agree to disagree on this point as I think that's a bad idea.

Will the lists play very similar but with basic name changes? If so, why not have one list with a stat line for both models?
Will the lists play differently? If so, what if I have Model Range X but like the rules for Army List Y, or vice versa I like Army List X but have Model Range Y- should I be forced to re-buy my Tyranid army?


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 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:47 pm 
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Yup, still waiting for you to reply to my PM.

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 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:52 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
I do support an "old models list" (Hive Fleet Behemoth) and a "new models list" (Hive Fleet Leviathan) so that if someone doesn't want to scratchbuild or proxy, then they'll have a list to use that will fit their old model collection perfectly.

Amen!

I disagree. The two lists could be built as the same, without the fine detail level that seems to be encroaching. There's no Veteran Marines. There's no variation in Ork Boyz. Imperial Guard seem to have two types of Infantry, Siege and Normal.

I'm not familiar with the latest 40K material, but is there anything in the new list that isn't in the old list, that fills a particular battlefield role, and isn't just a name change with a few bells and whistles? Most of the stuff I've seen bandied about locally by those who talk 40K, is just "Oh, it's a Carnifex, with extra arms and a tail". That kind of thing shouldn't matter in Epic.

Or, more succinctly, "What Jeridan said."

Morgan Vening


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 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:56 pm 
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The look of models is very important to me.

If there are separate lists, then I can cater for what list I want to play (old school or new). I do not wish to proxy if I do not have to. I am not alone in this.

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 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:03 pm 
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I disagree. The two lists could be built as the same, without the fine detail level that seems to be encroaching. There's no Veteran Marines. There's no variation in Ork Boyz. Imperial Guard seem to have two types of Infantry, Siege and Normal.

Except if you step outside of the two official IG lists, there's Krieg Guard, Elysian Guard, Catachan Guard, Tallarn Guard, etc. all with their own iconic style represented (Krieg good in CC, Elysians can teleport, Catachans can "trap" terrain, Tallarns have sniper rifles instead of autocannons, etc).

And there's no variation in Ork Boyz for the same reason as there's only the Shadowsword and the Baneblade in the Steel Legion list: Fanatic were too poor to be able to update the models properly, so a lot of very old models had to be recommissioned, and compromises made.

Quote:
I'm not familiar with the latest 40K material, but is there anything in the new list that isn't in the old list, that fills a particular battlefield role, and isn't just a name change with a few bells and whistles? Most of the stuff I've seen bandied about locally by those who talk 40K, is just "Oh, it's a Carnifex, with extra arms and a tail". That kind of thing shouldn't matter in Epic.

Well the Harpy is a flying carnifex-sized beast, that's the biggest ommission IMO.

Other than that, there's a lot of rough comparisons available (An exocrine is vaguely the same as a Tyrannofex, for example), but it's the same kind of ill-fit as counting a Leman Russ Tank Destroyer as a Leman Russ Vanquisher... counts-as can cover it if it must, but you really want a variant list where it's properly represented.


In addition, the current list *already* includes units from the current 40k, namely the Scythed and Barbed Hierodules. So you'd argue for their removal, I suppose, since they require scratchbuilding to be able to use?

It also includes a unit that will never get a model either in Epic or 40k because it was a product of pie-in-the-sky unrealistic thinking that stuck, the Vituperator. Remove that, or keep it?

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 Post subject: Re: [UPDATE!] Tyranids v9.2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:08 pm 
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Some fair points on the IG Infantry comparisons. I was a bit lax in checking them.
Evil and Chaos wrote:
In addition, the current list *already* includes units from the current 40k, namely the Scythed and Barbed Hierodules. So you'd argue for their removal, I suppose, since they require scratchbuilding to be able to use?

It also includes a unit that will never get a model either in Epic or 40k because it was a product of pie-in-the-sky unrealistic thinking that stuck, the Vituperator. Remove that, or keep it?

I don't have an issue with either of these three being included. My main point of contention isn't about "old 40K" vs "new 40K". Given the choice, I prefer "old", but primarily because "new" changes every couple of years, and I don't think the Core Lists should be reset.

It's about not swinging too far to NetEpic (or the other way, to E40K). Especially for the Core Lists. As long as a model has a particularly defined battlefield role, it should definately be included. The Heirodules are a low level War Engine (akin to ShadowSword/Baneblade). The Vituperator is essentially a slow Thunderhawk. Now, whether these roles SHOULD be fielded, or left as a strategic weakness, that's for others to decide. I've no real problem with either.

My issue is, as you mentioned, making a differentiation between the LR Vanquisher and LR Tank Destroyer. In the core list, which should be fairly adaptable, rough versions of each role is sufficient (In Steel Legion, it's the Vanquisher). It shouldn't matter at the Core level. In the NetEA IG Draft, it's only one list that allows the Tank Destroyer, the Minervans. Which is a variant that deals with Tanks.

That's not to say I don't think weapon configurations need to be removed. But they should only be included sparingly IMO. Example, Marine Dreads or Preds. I think the Razorbacks difference is unneeded though. And I wouldn't have a problem with Harpies (your other example), being done in the same manner as the Hive Tyrant or Daemon Prince.

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across. I just don't see a point in two seperate lists, with one list having an Exocrine, and another list having "an Exocrine with +1EA" (or whatever other minor effect a Tyrranofex would have). Fit it to the role, shape it, balance it, don't just put it in because it's in 40K. You did this kind of thing yourself, in the Leviathan list. A Dominatrix is a Heirophant with an upgrade. Though you dropped the ball on seperating the Hive Tyrants. ;D

Morgan Vening


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