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[BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha

 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:32 pm 
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Its a fair point E&C.. but Necrons and AMTL are possibly the worst armies to test against.

As both are rather "extreme" lists (one often starts with no units on the table and the other is often all shielded WEs).

The Apocrypha is a variant SM list, much closer to being a safe bet for testing.

As MV actually played the game, I am inclined to believe him when he says it wasn't the list that skewed the results.


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 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:43 pm 
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clausewitz wrote:
I am guessing that the large number of TBolt formations was what allowed your opponent to punish your broken formations?

Yep. And one Double from a LandSpeeder formation.
clausewitz wrote:
Also with every other SM formation having MW attacks (unusual for marines) the RA of your knights is "less" apparent in effect.

Actually, the MW did next to bugger all bar a single assault that I was going to lose in a big way anyway (12 Terminators vs 4 Lancers + 3 Wardens).
clausewitz wrote:
I would say that it wasn't so much that your opponent was playing an experimental list, more that it was an unusually skewed SM army. Especially as all the actual units the SMs used were using "established" stats.

Can you post what list the Knights used?

4 Lancers + Seneschal
4 Lancers + Seneschal
4 Errants + Seneschal
4 Errants + Seneschal
3 Paladins + Baron
3 Crusaders
3 Wardens (2AA, 1BC)
3 Wardens (2AA, 1BC)
8 Aspirants

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 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:05 am 
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Occasionally, I think I'll start a Knightworld list. Then I look at how many Knights I need.

I don't suppose you live in Winnipeg, Morgan? :P

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 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:09 am 
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clausewitz wrote:
Its a fair point E&C.. but Necrons and AMTL are possibly the worst armies to test against.

I disagree, they are both known quantities with known weaknessess and strengths, which can be judged and accounted for in the post-analysis.

They have a more solid foundation to form judgements from than a list which has never seen a playtest before (Which has 800 points invested in Dreadnought formations), IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:16 am 
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Actually, frogbear playtested the list vs. the Emperor's Children. The post's around here somewhere.

I'd say the fact that the units in that list are themselves effectively known quantities makes things secure enough that some conclusions can be reasonably drawn. Is it as effective as testing either list against an established one? Probably not. But since both end up tested, I'd say it works out pretty well.

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 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:19 am 
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Is it as effective as testing either list against an established one? Probably not.

And that's all that need be said, really.

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 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:39 am 
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On the discussion of theoryhammer/playtest/non-random option, all of them are flawed in their own ways.

Theoryhammer only works with a lot of experience, a lot of math, and usually only works with a gods-eye-view. It doesn't take into account the press and flow of an actual game, where things (and players) function non-optimally.

Non-random is flawed in that it only works if the players don't take the lack of randomness into account. If they don't, then while it becomes a great intellectual exercise, all sense of risk goes out the window. Then there's also the issue of statistical determination. Let's assume you're playing with a 2+Init army. You activate 5 formations, knowing they can't fail. You know you're going to fail the 6th. So you pick one that is either currently useless, or one where it doesn't matter (A Shadowsword on an objective with LOS to it's target is going to be hit on a 2+ regardless of if it Sustains or not). This type of thing would have been most relevant in the first Rally phase. I failed to rally the almost pristine Crusaders on a 5+. Rerolled. Failed again. Rolled for my two remaining Armiger Sentinels on a 5+. Succeeded. That fits into the averages of statistics. If randomness weren't an issue, and I could pick the variance successes and failures, the game would have swung a lot differently.

Playtests, while they are technically the best option, are so fundamentally flawed that they often don't give meaningful advice. Firstly, the sample size is usually statistically insignificant. If 100-200 games were played, maybe things would even out. But those 100-200 games would have to be played by people that have both an equal skill level, or knowing whether the win was due to the balance of the list, or the skill of the players. Also, consistency is needed. Some players adapt quickly, and so early/late wins may be skewed by that. Others may have a particular tactical style (assault oriented, not enjoying/capable at primarily shooting forces). Then there's the random factor, which can completely skew it, as well as psychological impacts. There's so much variance, that playtesting is next to useless as a refined design tool, but they do make for good reading.

For the most part, design seems to be a combination of small amounts of Theoryhammer and Playtesting, with a large pinch of "F'it, it's close enough.". Because in a lot of circumstances, there's still wild gaps in opinion on established lists (Predators/Land Raiders as Transports/Shadowswords vs Baneblades/blah blahblah blah).

I'll continue to playtest, and I do want other people to playtest, but I'm not going to have playtesting impractically skew the design process. Or else Knights would be about 30% better/cheaper than they are now, and I just don't think that's justified. They wouldn't have to make Dangerous Terrain tests, for one (3 more Knights joined the ranks of the sleepy in that game. My opponent's DN's failed 0, despite making about twice as many). I mean, that's proof Walker on Knights isn't effective enough, yes? ;D

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 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:13 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
I'm curious, does anyone just "test' using no dice? i.e use the statistical probabilities instead? I always figured that would be much more accurate a way to test something given it's 100% no luck and you always get the correct result - I think...


I work out units stats using probabilities, and run scenarios for them mathematically, e.g. "on average will they beat a tactical formationin close combat" or whatever.

This method and conservative guesswork can be used to get a list very close to balance, but it doesn't really take tactics into account, and that's a key thing in epic.

Necrons are a good example of this; for a long time they looked mostly fine on paper, but certain tactics developed to exploit their strengths, and they become overpowered. It was only through playtesting that this was discovered, and retheoryhammering to iron it out.


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 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:56 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
Is it as effective as testing either list against an established one? Probably not.

And that's all that need be said, really.


If by that you mean that this "playtest" might be five or ten percent "less effective" than one done versus an "established list" then fair enough. But to suggest that this game was not an effective test due to the use of the AoS list give the wrong impression.

Any imbalance brought about by the use of the AoS army used in this game is far less of a factor than all the other variances that occur in ANY playtest game. Player mistakes, lucky or unlucky dice rolls and so on all account for far greater skewing of playtest results.

And in this game the massive air domination of the AoS army was a large factor. In a similar vein to AMTL games where the AMTL opponent brings an unusually large number of TK weapons.

Quote:
Playtests, while they are technically the best option, are so fundamentally flawed that they often don't give meaningful advice.

If one was to infer from a single platest result that a list was over or under powered then this would be the case.

Which is why the important factor in playtesting is not the result of that game, or the actual performace of a unit or formation, but the interpretation of the game by the players/testers.

As has been mentioned there is no mathematical formula that can balance the diverse units/weapons/rules etc that govern Epic. So all balancing is done partly by experience (the other parts being calculation and comparison).

And though this game might not have yielded a great deal of information I think it did highlight an issue that MV needs to take into account with the knight list.

An army made up of small formations of expensive, non-fearless, units is highly vulnerable to losses when broken. Add to that 2+ initiative, and therefore greater difficulty in rallying than 1+ initiative armies, and you have a key weakness of the list.

And it just so happens that aircraft are ideal formations to take advantage of that weakness (multiple attacks can add BMs to either break the knight formations, or kill off already broken formations).


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 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:12 am 
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zombocom wrote:
I work out units stats using probabilities, and run scenarios for them mathematically, e.g. "on average will they beat a tactical formationin close combat" or whatever.


I have found this tactic (albeit, not the tactical formation for my purposes) to be the best judge of balance for any list made. Spend the time (sometimes hours) with an excel sheet and various unit stats and you come out pretty close to balanced if you are able to work judgementally and release 'pet desires'.

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 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:27 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Death Korps of Krieg is an example of an established list, for example. Or AMTL. Or Dark Eldar, or Necrons. All of those are known quantities which have known weaknesses and strengths, and so a battle report against each will be easier to draw conclusions from.


E&C: Can you honestly state that for the game of Epic:A, AMTL, Dark Eldar and Necrons are balanced forces?

Forget about the fact that they are 'established' - as anything that sees print appears to gain that stamp whether balanced or not (Dark Eldar and Necrons being the example here with the most recent discussions and amendments on both). Let's see how the forces in Mosc's next supplement balance out.... I daresay that there will be issues

I just think that 'experimental lists' are being given a harsh treatment. All I am saying is give them a fair go.

It is easy enough to make statements stating that a playtest against the list is not worthwhile to the 'stress test' of the list. My querey to anyone who states this however is: "What time, feedback and effort have you placed forward to the development of that specific 'experimental' list to make that judgement call?" If you can show the time and feedback, then all the power to you - although specifics would be nice. If not however, I think any comment of imbalance without specifics is harsh.

Who is to say that a list that has had the due diligence spent on it (in general), yet does not have interest from the public to look and comment, is not as balanced (or even moreso) than any 'established' list?

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 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:37 am 
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Quote:
E&C: Can you honestly state that for the game of Epic:A, AMTL, Dark Eldar and Necrons are balanced forces?

Yeah, they're not bad.

More importantly they are known quantities, so we know in advance how their style of play is likely to distort a battle. You're hung up on overall balance when just being a known quantity is far more important.

I've been helping develop lists for Epic for years, and so have others who have chimed in in support of what I said*, and it's simply a concrete truth that testing experimental lists against established lists is a better method.

Quote:
All I am saying is give them a fair go.

They were given a fair go, and it resulted in Swordwind, a supplement where all three lists were overpowered. Ever since then, we've tried to test experimental lists against established lists, so as to avoid the mistakes of the past.

I'm not giving advice without talking from experience.



*dptdexys, for example, is quite probably the best Epic player in the world.

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 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:53 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I'm not giving advice without talking from experience.


Hey, no lack of respect here Big G :)

Just asking ;)

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 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:30 pm 
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Quote:
They were given a fair go, and it resulted in Swordwind, a supplement where all three lists were overpowered. Ever since then, we've tried to test experimental lists against established lists, so as to avoid the mistakes of the past.


The implication you are making is that the Swordwind armies were overpowered because they were playtested against non-established army lists.

Which armies were they tested against?


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 Post subject: Re: [BR Lite] Knightworld 1.1 vs Apocrypha
PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:34 pm 
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clausewitz wrote:
Quote:
They were given a fair go, and it resulted in Swordwind, a supplement where all three lists were overpowered. Ever since then, we've tried to test experimental lists against established lists, so as to avoid the mistakes of the past.


The implication you are making is that the Swordwind armies were overpowered because they were playtested against non-established army lists.

Which armies were they tested against?

Mostly, each other.

Not enough tests occured against the established core lists, and it led to a number of probems down the line.

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