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Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0e

 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:01 pm 
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Again, why does this list represent some things as they were 20 years ago mixed with some brand new things.

This inconsistency leaves the list feeling a little messy.


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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:16 pm 
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Other than the Tarantula, which units are represented as how they were 20 years ago?

If it is just the Tarantula then surely this can be easily explained by the chapter having access to an old STC or something like that?


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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:17 pm 
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In regards to the whole artillery thing:

It's possible artillery pieces should be Light Vehicles (fits with how they're used in 40K). Possibly they should be mounted infantry.

What I do know is that every other artillery piece I can find is an infantry unit (and clausewitz's list seems rather exhaustive), so the Tarantula and the Thunderfire and the Field Guns are infantry units, too. When you can't be right, be consistent.

If we want to talk about revising all the artillery pieces, I'm game. But otherwise, they can be infantry.

* * *

E&C:
Quote:
Thunderfire Cannons and Tarantulas both have the same armour rating as a Sentinel in 40k, I believe, not a toughness stat.

So they're in the LV category.


Except that artillery pieces in Epic seem to be considered Infantry - note Eldar Weapons platforms, for example, and the various Siegemaster artillery pieces. I'd agree that it doesn't make complete sense, but that does seem to be the standard.

Quote:
And Tarantulas are not mobile....


In every version of an Epic-scale game I can find where they've had rules, they've been mobile. And always for the same reason.

Codex Titanicus (1989) - gravitic base which allows it to traverse rough terrain easily
Armies of the Imperium (1991) - 10cm move on charge. Gravitic reaction motors
Squat Tarantula in Ork and Squat Warlords (1992) - 10cm move on charge. Possesses gravitic reaction motors. EDIT: Epic 40,000 Armies - Support weapons (which encompasses Tarantulas) have a 10cm move - the same as basic SM Infantry. :EDIT

It was man-portable in Space Crusade, as well. Furthermore, I'm not clear on how two or three Space Marines and Servitors couldn't manhandle a weapon system around if necessary in any case.

If you think it should be slower, I'm open to that. 15cm does feel a little quick for an artillery piece, even a somewhat mobile one. But there's plenty of precedent for them to be mobile.

* * *

zombocom:
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Again, why does this list represent some things as they were 20 years ago mixed with some brand new things.


For a variety of reasons.

First, because I (and some others, apparently) like it.

Second, because it lets the list represent either or both of those things if necessary, thus making it more useful.

Third, because both the new things and the old things make sense as things Space Marine Chapters would use in the circumstances the list is ostensibly representing.

Fourth, because the old things in question have models, and there are few enough Epic units with models as it is.

Fifth, because willing things in and out of existence based on whatever's currently legal in 40K is unnecessary (and, indeed, isn't even done in official Epic lists - look at the Siegemasters).

If you're referring only to the Tarantula - because that's the last time I can find it represented in Epic, and it seemed just as good to use an old depiction as to use the modern depiction and still end up in nearly the same place, since on the larger scale of Epic even the immobile Tarantula would be somewhat mobile.

* * *

clausewitz:

Quote:
All in all I would say that the balance is likely to be a slightly less powerful list than the codex marine list (which is exactly where a variant list should be IMO).


That's the sort-of-hoped-for intent. :)

Quote:
I clicked on the links in your signature SK. And what you have there is exactly what this list is missing. It needs a nice IA to explain why the chapter operates as the list intends. Why do they deviate from the codex by declining the use of troop-insertion THawks? (Are they all BA Baracus-types? "I pity the fool that tries to get me on a ThunderHawk!" ;) )


Tempting. I could use the Ice Lords or the Steel Dogs for this, I suppose. Of course, I'd need to write the Steel Dogs IA, but that's not necessarily a downside.

Hmmm. I shall ponder this.

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Last edited by Simulated Knave on Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:49 pm 
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clausewitz wrote:
Perhaps they should be LV. I would suggest that it is the low-profile of such weapons that makes them infantry rather than LV. But that issue has been around for ages (big gunz are not exactly new), how did you deal with that in the past Frogbear?


I play by the rules of course. It does not make it right however.

That is why I provide feedback ... and that's all this is. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0b
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:01 pm 
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Alright. Proposed changes for 1.0c, which I think will be the version I submit:

-Add teleport back, at +50 points. It can represent more than teleporting in any case.
-Reduce Tarantula movement to 10cm. Consider changing them to Support Weapons rather than Tarantulas, so they can encompass Rapiers as well.
-Change the Field Gun name to something that annoys me less.

Any other changes people think are necessary?

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0b
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:39 pm 
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i'm actually good with keeping the field guns/tarantula at 15cm. but thats just me being a ww2 buff and understanding that smallish field guns Can be moved. though if you make them 10cm it makes that unit extremely slow.


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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0b
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:33 pm 
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Any other changes people think are necessary?

Background :)


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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0b
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:17 am 
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10cm MV is a step in the right direction if you will not consider the other options. I have version 1.0 Provisional and all such weapons were 10cm. I did not know this had changed.

Terminator addition I think is warranted also. Not sure however if it will effect selection choices, because IMO, at +50 points, you have just announced the death of the Land Raider as a transport option for these guys.

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0b
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:24 am 
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There will be background, worry not.

* * *

frogbear:

Quote:
10cm MV is a step in the right direction if you will not consider the other options. I have version 1.0 Provisional and all such weapons were 10cm. I did not know this had changed.


It changed in 1.0b. It will evidently be changing back. :P Razorbacks and a few other things changed as well. Nothing too earth-shaking.

The link in the main post was updated, and there's another link a few posts back, if you want to take a look.

Quote:
Terminator addition I think is warranted also. Not sure however if it will effect selection choices, because IMO, at +50 points, you have just announced the death of the Land Raider as a transport option for these guys.


I mean giving them teleport will cost +50. Without it, they'll be 300. Meaning Terminators with a LR should be 600. Terminators with teleport would be 350.

I figured we'd try them at 600. If they're still not workable, Terminators could go to 275 and Teleport would go to +75.

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0b
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:22 pm 
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Right. 1.0c is up. The "full" version contains a ridiculous heapload of background. The other, well, doesn't. Note that the background unit descriptions would likely grow from version to version - I enjoy looting battle reports for color text, and dislike making it up out of whole cloth.

PDFs only. If you really want a DOC, ask me for one. :)

Full PDF (Mediafire Link)

Normal PDF (Mediafire Link)

Attachment:
Apocrypha of Skaros - 1.0c - Provisional.pdf [72.41 KiB]
Downloaded 249 times


Changelist (1.0b->1.0c)
Tarantula MkIs are now Support Weapons. Speed returns to 10cm.
Field Guns are now Artillery Pieces. Speed returns to 10cm.
Teleport option restored. Cost to 50.

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0c
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:12 am 
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Thanks very much for sharing. Space Marines are my favourite force and I really like Infantry...so I'm liking your concept. I haven't had a chance to go through it fully yet but will sit down and give it all a good read through tonight. On a quick flick through though, I did notice a small typo. The stat line for the Storm has its weapon range as 5+ instead of 30cm.


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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0c
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:00 pm 
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General Note: I just noticed that Land Speeder Storms still have Scout, which should have been removed back in 1.0b. Oops.

ASD:

Glad you like the list, awesomeshotdude. May I call you awesome?

Typo's been fixed in the master document. Whether this is the last draft or not, it'll be fixed in the next upload. Thanks for spotting it. :) Wish I could figure out how it happened in the first place. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:59 pm 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Quote:
Thunderfire Cannons and Tarantulas both have the same armour rating as a Sentinel in 40k, I believe, not a toughness stat.

So they're in the LV category.


Except that artillery pieces in Epic seem to be considered Infantry - note Eldar Weapons platforms, for example, and the various Siegemaster artillery pieces. I'd agree that it doesn't make complete sense, but that does seem to be the standard.

I agree that it's a fudged line, but I think you're standing on the wrong side of the line.

Quote:
Quote:
And Tarantulas are not mobile....


In every version of an Epic-scale game I can find where they've had rules, they've been mobile. And always for the same reason.

Codex Titanicus (1989) - gravitic base which allows it to traverse rough terrain easily
Armies of the Imperium (1991) - 10cm move on charge. Gravitic reaction motors
Squat Tarantula in Ork and Squat Warlords (1992) - 10cm move on charge. Possesses gravitic reaction motors. EDIT: Epic 40,000 Armies - Support weapons (which encompasses Tarantulas) have a 10cm move - the same as basic SM Infantry. :EDIT


It's notable that the most recent example you date is thirteen years ago.

Ever since Tarantulas were re-introduced to the setting by Forgeworld, about ten years ago, they have been static.

Ergo, your Tarantulas are not Tarantulas.

They are "pre-heresy tracked Tarantulas" or something. Whatever they are, they're not "Tarantulas", and it's wrong of you to label them so.

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0c
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:39 pm 
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Quote:
I agree that it's a fudged line, but I think you're standing on the wrong side of the line.


Artillery pieces in 40K are all AV 10/10/10 vehicles. And every one of them that has an Epic representation is Infantry. Find me one that isn't and we'll talk about where the line is. Until there is such an example, there isn't even a line for me to be on the wrong side of.

If people want to discuss changing all artillery pieces to Light Vehicles, or Vehicles, or something else entirely, I'm perfectly willing to enter into the discussion. Indeed, I'll likely support it (or at least be unsure which side to be on). Perhaps we should evaluate every piece on a case-by-case basis. But there is nothing in the position I currently hold that is inconsistent with how Epic does artillery pieces.

Quote:
Ever since Tarantulas were re-introduced to the setting by Forgeworld, about ten years ago, they have been static.

Ergo, your Tarantulas are not Tarantulas.


Alternately, their Tarantulas are not the same Tarantulas that were originally in the game. After all, those were mobile. Clearly, the other Tarantulas just haven't been seen lately, while these inferior knockoffs are more common. There is more to 40K than the most recent set of books, E&C.

The Tarantula has had gravitic motors far more often than it has not, and in this case it is far more useful for it to have them. Or maybe the Marines just carry them. Point is, they can move, there's precedent for them to be able to move, and even if there weren't an immobile unit has no place in Epic and there are a variety of abstracted means by which they conceivably could move. So they do.

Quote:
They are "pre-heresy tracked Tarantulas" or something. Whatever they are, they're not "Tarantulas", and it's wrong of you to label them so.


In the current version of the list, they're Support Weapons. An all-encompassing term which includes Tarantulas, Rapiers, "and a wide variety of other weapons and emplacements [which] offer destructive potential unequalled in the Imperium of Man." Perhaps a bit too hyperbolic, I admit. But they're not (just)Tarantulas any more.

Furthermore, nowhere in the list does it say how they move. If you prefer to imagine Space Marines picking up and carrying immobile Tarantulas, I encourage you to do so. Added to that, there is no reason that the dedicated Space Marine version couldn't simply be better than the Guard version. Or that the gravitic engines can't be used in the heat of combat/while firing. The current presentation can accomodate almost every version except that which says that Tarantulas don't exist at all.

Do you have any thoughts on the other parts of the list? Any concerns you feel I have not addressed (I have attempted to, but I didn't think going through everyone's post line by line and replying would work well, so I could easily have missed something). Do you think I should pare things back a little, or is this at a usable size? It's about the same size as the Scions of Iron at the moment, but the Damocles, the Thunderfire, or even both could go with little or no impact (the Thunderfire can fit acceptably into the generic "Artillery Piece" entry, if necessary. And nobody has any of the damn things anyway).

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0c
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:45 pm 
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Quote:
There is more to 40K than the most recent set of books, E&C.

You like what Epic was 15-20 years ago, I get that.

But for ten years, "Tarantula" has meant a static autonomous sentry turret.

Call 'em "Tracked Tarantulas", and everybody's happy again.

Quote:
Do you have any thoughts on the other parts of the list?

I've noted before that looking at it by eye I think it looks overpowered.

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