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Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0e

 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:43 pm 
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If you compare it to a reaver it doesn't really stack up.


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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:13 am 
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Just put LRCs in and you get 4 Terminators in 2 LRs...


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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:06 am 
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Well, I've come up with version 1.0b.

DOC Version (Mediafire Link)

PDF Version (Mediafire Link)

Changelist: 1.0->1.0b
Removed Fire Support option from Devastators
Terminator cost to 300
Heavy Support Option revised - two more Tarantulas, no Tarantula option
Fire Support option revised
Razorback option revised
Tarantula option revised
Tarantulas are now Tarantula MkIs
Mole Mortars and Thudd Guns have been combined into Field Guns (which are basically Thudd Guns)
Removed Troop Insertion Thunderhawk

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:36 am 
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Before I get into this - thanks to both Fortis and frogbear for trying the list out. Glad you had fun. Well, assuming you did. :)

There were a number of oft-mentioned concerns with the past list. I thought about all of them fairly hard before I worked out 1.0b. I'll explain the changes, then address some of the concerns:

Heavy Support Option revised - two more Tarantulas, no Tarantula option:
Advised on the advice of (IIRC), nealhunt.

Fire Support option revised:
Again, nealhunt

Razorback option revised:
Should allow for ablativeness if necessary without promoting spamming.

Tarantula option revised:
Simplified.

Tarantulas are now Tarantula MkIs:
The versions that don't move so easily are, of course, the inferior MkIIs, which are constructed from heavier materials, lack the sophisticated grav-engines, and which had the carrying handles left off after cost overruns.

Mole Mortars and Thudd Guns have been combined into Field Guns (which are basically Thudd Guns):
The idea was to have them be usable more than anything else - they are. Beyond that, I'm not too worried, and this isn't the place to decide how a Mole Mortar should work anyway.

Removed Troop Insertion Thunderhawk:
I miss it a little, but it's not necessary, and there's enough stuff in this list as it is.

Now, people's concerns:
Lack of single Warhounds: The Space Marines aren't supposed to be a war-machine heavy army - their lack of them is one of their major weaknesses in fluff, and indeed is necessary for the security of the Imperium. War Machines in a Space Marine army would represent the commitment of significant forces by another organization. Also, no single Warhounds helps balance out some of the reduced prices on line units.

Inclusion of old units: One of the things I like most about 40K (and also Epic) is the multiplicity of possibilities in the background - things that once were and are no more, things that might still be, and the things that are now but-who-knows-for-how-long. I see no reason to tie the list to a particular iteration of the background when the background is ever shifting and it's simple to include multiple aspects.

That said, I also shouldn't hold the list hostage to them. As long as there's an option which allows for them, that's enough - and there is such an option.

Tac and Dev prices: For the moment, I have left them unchanged - the people who've done the most playing seem content with them for the moment, and it's not exactly a difficult change to make should it prove necessary. The list lacks Air Assaulting and single Warhounds - slightly cheaper line infantry seems unlikely to destabilize things too much.

Lack of list focus: Well now, this one's trickier to deal with. I've tried to focus it up a bit by eliminating the Troop Insertion Thunderhawk and scaling back the artillery.

What I basically hope for/expect from this list is that it should represent a Battle Company deployed to fight on the ground with support. Beyond that, I'm not particularly picky about how it goes about it. It should focus on Space Marines over anything else, and on infantry more than armor (though armor can still play a major role, and likely will have to). Beyond that, I'm not particularly concerned. It may fight like Guard. It may fight like Eldar. It may fight like Tau. As long as it can fight, I'm pleased. :)

Oh, and frogbear - artillery pieces don't seem to have mounted, at least not in other lists. If it seems to be a real problem, I suppose we could be trendsetters.

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:21 am 
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Quote:
Oh, and frogbear - artillery pieces don't seem to have mounted, at least not in other lists.


It's just a simple point in my opinion that if
- something is bigger than a Space Marine (which the Thunderfire is) and tracked, it should be 'mounted' or LV
- it cannot be set up in a building and fired from within a building without destroying vast areas of said building, then it is Mounted
- the item cannot be carried between floors comfortably within a building, then it is Mounted
- it is tracked, or on some type of small mechanical legs (tarrantula), then it is Mounted
- the weapon to large to be held by an INF model and not 'mounted' (excuse the relation) on an AV, then it is either LV or (you guessed it) Mounted

If the other lists do not have it (squats? - no idea, have not looked) then they simply have it incorrect.

Yes, that is very direct, however that is my view. In all fairness, having such weapons (per fluff) act as INF to gain all the advantages and none of the setbacks of 'mounted support weapons' is (get ready for it), gamey IMO.

I do not direct this at this list or yourself SK. It is just a general opinion regarding this unit type and how it should be represented in the game.

Yibbidy Yibbida, that's all folks.

Cheers ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:28 pm 
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so the rapiers were taken out i see, though i do notice that the tarantula's take their place in the static AT department. (cool because i only had two of them,)
This makes me want to experiment with them even more so now. i just have to get another game in soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:21 pm 
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Hi Simulated Knave.

Some feedback on the AoS list.

Firstly I like the general idea. I am somewhat old-school and I fondly remember the days of Space Marines crewing tarantula's etc. I also like the idea of a more infantry focused SM ground pounder army.

On the power level of the list...
The removal of both teleporting terminators and air-assault THawks is a big drop in power level as these are argueably the most used tools in the SM toolbox. Similarly the restriction on Warhounds to pairs only is a drop in power (there was an extensive thread discussing why recently). Also nobody else has mentioned (that I noticed) the 1/4 points allowance for titans and aircraft (including the SM aircraft). This is less than the usual 1/3, and has some significant implications. For example the Warlord titan is simply unavailable at 3000 points, taking a Reaver titan at 3k means no aircraft and taking the Warhound pair allows just one aircraft formation.
In return for that we get: cheaper line infantry (and potentially bigger formations), a dreadnought formation, various crewed weapon options, a land speeder variant, a land raider variant and command vehicles.
All in all I would say that the balance is likely to be a slightly less powerful list than the codex marine list (which is exactly where a variant list should be IMO).

On the artillery and Mounted status.
I have to disagree with Frogbear. I think it should remain as infantry. This is how it is represented in other lists (from siegemasters to eldar) and it is how I believe it is used in "real life" (cue stories of WWII German guns in ruins etc).

On list focus.
I clicked on the links in your signature SK. And what you have there is exactly what this list is missing. It needs a nice IA to explain why the chapter operates as the list intends. Why do they deviate from the codex by declining the use of troop-insertion THawks? (Are they all BA Baracus-types? "I pity the fool that tries to get me on a ThunderHawk!" ;) )


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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:41 pm 
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With the German AT guns it was a true thing. they humped Pak 36, 37mm and Pak 38, 50 cm guns around like they were tinker toys.. putting them into woodlines, buildings and such, especially a 37mm with the steilgranate. And to some reasonable degree, the Pak 40, 75mm. Though that gun was a bit more heavy to hump around they still got the job done.


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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:46 pm 
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Let's get serious shall we:

Tarrantula
Image


Thudd Gun
Image


Thunderfire
Image


If these are portable through buildings and ruins (dangerous terrain) as infantry, then you are all kidding yourselves. They are mounted IMO.

These are not merely large machine guns on tripods.

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:06 pm 
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Siegemasters - Rapier Laser Destroyer & Thudd Gun - INF
AM - Mole Mortar & Thudd Gun - INF
Orks - Big Gunz - INF
Feral Orks - Squig Catapult - INF
Eldar - Guardian Heavy Weapon Platform & Guardian Support Weapon Platform - INF

That is a great deal of precedent for tarantulas and so on to also be INF.

Yeah, they don't fit through the doors of a building... but if I had a big laser gun thingy and I wanted to get into a building...

Besides talking about entering buildings is over-simplifying the issue. They can most definitely be moved through ruins, woods and around small, closely packed buildings. And most importantly of all, weapons like this are designed to "make use of cover" (again cue many stories from historical battles where field artillery was used in such a way). Units with the Mounted status are those which, for various reasons usually don't or can't "make use of cover".


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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:07 pm 
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You know what, maybe I am wrong. They are not mounted.

They are actually LV.

The question is whether they would be equally effected by a bolter shot or a lascannon. The simple answer is yes.

As opposed to an INF stand being hit by a lascannon, some of the initial 3-7 models are useful. In the case of an LV unit, such a shot could be fatal.

Regardless of what other lists have or say, it stands to reason that if a support unit is equally effected by both AP (being crew) and AT (being weapon) shots, then it is LV. Either death may mean the use of the stand is made NIL. How can you state that a Lascannon would not be as effective as a bolter to a single support weapon that remains stationary or moves very slowly while shooting?

If it is merely a suspension of disbelief, it is yet just another example of rules that just don't make sense and we just accept them because it is easier that way. What a shame.

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:09 pm 
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clausewitz wrote:
Besides talking about entering buildings is over-simplifying the issue.


So why not allow bikes and rough riders into buildings. Either of them are more agile than these units.

This type of reasoning makes no sense to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:22 pm 
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Perhaps they should be LV. I would suggest that it is the low-profile of such weapons that makes them infantry rather than LV. But that issue has been around for ages (big gunz are not exactly new), how did you deal with that in the past Frogbear?

Regarding bikes and Rough Riders.
Apart from the obvious fact that they are literally "Mounted" units, I would suggest that it's not that they could not go into a building, but that for them to do so is not helpful. They operate by using their speed and manoeuvrability, entering a building would lose those attributes (as they would clearly take a long time to enter/exit). They need to be able to "charge" into an enemy at a moments notice, that is their mode of operation, and as such they don't go digging themselves into buildings/ruins etc. Field guns are all about digging in and shooting, so clearly their mode of operation includes such digging in. As I said some units can't go into buildings and some units DON'T. (Even if they could physically fit in.)


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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:35 pm 
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Thunderfire Cannons and Tarantulas both have the same armour rating as a Sentinel in 40k, I believe, not a toughness stat.

So they're in the LV category.

And Tarantulas are not mobile....

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 Post subject: Re: Apocrypha of Skaros 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:42 pm 
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Toughness/Armour Rating in W40K... are just the means of abstraction used for that game. Epic is a different game and therefore uses different means of abstraction.

Again why would those units be treated differently in Epic than the Rapier/Big Gun etc?

The Tarantula MkI (as listed in the AoS list) is not the immobile version. (SK has already mentioned this.)


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