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My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.

 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:17 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
We also played Broadsides at 325pts per formation (still great),

I'm still very concerned about the push to do this. :-\ If you take one HH and one BBs fm in a list it basically blows away most of the bonus for the HHs dropping in cost. The Tau list is very cost sensitive. So the theory of cheaper (meaning more) HHs is kinda dead and the HHs are still naff in terms of shooting without any ability to deal with heavy armour targets. Part of the reason the cost decrease isn't something I support.

I have to say it again - Broadsides are fine at 300 - they have been for a while.


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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:41 am 
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E&C, can you post the lists for the IG vs Tau game?


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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:41 pm 
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My Tau list was,

Mech FW + Skyray 325
Mech FW + Slyray 325
Foot FW + Bonded Team 250
Crisis Suits + SC 400
Broadsides 325
Broadsides 325
Recon (6 Tetras) 150
Recon (6 Tetras) 150
HH's (Fusion) 200
Manta 550

10 Activations 3000 points


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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:54 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
We also played Broadsides at 325pts per formation (still great),
If you take one HH and one BBs fm in a list it basically blows away most of the bonus for the HHs dropping in cost.

You end up with an extra 25pts overall in that situation, which is a boost to the Tau.

Furthermore, the Upgrade of +2 Hammerheads would be reduced to 100pts, meaning that when taking 6 Hammerheads you'll get 75pts extra to spend as compared to before... a large boost to the Tau, and more than enough to pay for a minor 25pt price increase on the superb Broadside formation.

Quote:
the HHs are still naff in terms of shooting without any ability to deal with heavy armour targets.

Fusion Hammerheads at 200pts.

Killing heavy armour should now be a lot easier.

Quote:
I have to say it again - Broadsides are fine at 300 - they have been for a while.

Disagreed, I think they're a crutch in the list as a consequence of being *very slightly* too good.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos on Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:01 pm 
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clausewitz wrote:
E&C, can you post the lists for the IG vs Tau game?

Steel Legion:

Reg HQ with Hydra - 550
Mech Inf with Snipers & extra Chimera - 475
Tank Company with Hydra - 700

Storm Troopers with Valkyries - 350
Sentinel Squadron - 100
Baneblade - 200
Shadowsword - 200

Thunderbolt Squadron - 150
Warhound Titan - 275


Total : 3000pts
Activations : 9


Similar, but not identical, to the lists I use in tournaments, which generally sees me finish in the top third of the rankings.

The game went 2-1, but still could have been different in the last turn (I could have bunkered up a little more than I did and played more cohesively for a turn 4).

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:51 am 
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Thanks Jstr19 & E&C.

From the look of the lists and the objectives that were secured that looks like it was an aggressive and fun game.

I think the Manta adjustment you tested might be right. Certainly in a crossfire it is weak (no Thick Rear Armour). But 8DC of WE for 550 is also tempting. (Also the Manta+Hero+Barracudas/Tigersharks/Orca combination would then be possible.)

Did the Tau player feel that Support Craft was a help or a hindrance (in that game)?


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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:21 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Dobbsy wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
We also played Broadsides at 325pts per formation (still great),
If you take one HH and one BBs fm in a list it basically blows away most of the bonus for the HHs dropping in cost.

You end up with an extra 25pts overall in that situation, which is a boost to the Tau.

Furthermore, the Upgrade of +2 Hammerheads would be reduced to 100pts, meaning that when taking 6 Hammerheads you'll get 75pts extra to spend as compared to before... a large boost to the Tau, and more than enough to pay for a minor 25pt price increase on the superb Broadside formation.

Ahh good point. I totally missed this!

Can I ask though, why you haven't argued for 325 points across all the versions of the lists before? They haven't truly changed all that much. It just seems odd that now after all this time - and testing - that Broadsides are all of a suddenly now underpriced and "a crutch". <shrug>

Evil and Chaos wrote:
Fusion Hammerheads at 200pts.

Killing heavy armour should now be a lot easier.

If they get an increase in to-hit stats. Otherwise they haven't really changed much. For a start, 5+ is wrong for a twin-linked weapon system.

Evil and Chaos wrote:
Disagreed, I think they're a crutch in the list as a consequence of being *very slightly* too good.

Personally I always use them because they're reliable and do their job correctly. Other stuff in the list doesn't. That's why they stand out. Increasing their cost because the rest of the list is under par is wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:02 am 
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Quote:
Can I ask though, why you haven't argued for 325 points across all the versions of the lists before? They haven't truly changed all that much. It just seems odd that now after all this time - and testing - that Broadsides are all of a suddenly now underpriced and "a crutch".

I downgraded them in the E series (With a -1 to hit on their main gun)... it wasn't enough.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:41 am 
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Ok we'll agree to disagree here. I'd suggest adjusting the other formations first, then change the price on the Broadsides to see if they're under priced. Changing all the other units AND changing the cost on Broadsides is the wrong thing to do as any changes to the current list that's - paraphrasing yourself "very close to completion" - need to be done incrementally and almost individually.

Doing them all at once upsets the balance and may require another adjustment down the track - which slows down the progress again.

I'm actually very surprised you advocate doing all these changes at once, given your previous cautious stance on list adjustments etc.

Evil and Chaos wrote:
I downgraded them in the E series (With a -1 to hit on their main gun)... it wasn't enough.

Enough for what? What is your actual aim with the Broadsides? is it because people take them regularly that you believe they need a price increase? I know you say they "overperform slightly" but if people taking things regularly means those things need a price increase where will it stop?


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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:50 am 
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Quote:
Doing them all at once upsets the balance and may require another adjustment down the track - which slows down the progress again.

I'm actually very surprised you advocate doing all these changes at once, given your previous cautious stance on list adjustments etc.

After many months of regular and committed testing I believe I can see what needs to be done to finish the list.

Quote:
Enough for what? What is your actual aim with the Broadsides? is it because people take them regularly that you believe they need a price increase? I know you say they "overperform slightly" but if people taking things regularly means those things need a price increase where will it stop?

I have come to believe that point-for-point, Broadsides are better than Hammerheads.

Thus if you drop Hammerheads to 50pts, they're priced the same as Broadsides (Which are 50pts each).

Being as I think Broadsides are better than Hammerheads, and I think 50pts is about right for Hammerheads, it naturally follows that the cost of Broadsides should go up a little.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:16 am 
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I've noticed multiple posts going back and forth about the Tau's completely inadequate capabilities in an engagement, and noticed that most of these have suggested upping the values of existing unit entries to compensate, which seem to be quickly knocked back down. So why not introduce a new unit, specifically to shore up the Tau's low FF values?

Of course, looking over the new list, it seems silly to suggest a new unit with no official Epic model when all the other extra's that didn't have models were ripped out, but, well. Forgeworld doesn't exactly have all the stuff in the CURRENT list up for sale now does it? Regardless, I would appreciate it if you all read on.

The XV-9 'Hazard' Close Support Armour introduced by Forgeworld seems to fit this role perfectly. All of it's weapons are extremely short range, the longest topping out at 24' and the rest being 18' or 12'. All of them too, are geared to wreak havoc at those ranges, the default being two twin-linked burst cannons, and the rest being equally...crazy, from repeating Fusion Blasters to two weapons that seem to be evolved from the special issue weapons of 40k. All this can be probably just thrown out the window though, to simply give them a default weapon chose of the dual twin-linked burst-cannons working similar to the Stealth Suit's, with a Small Arms and Ranged Setting, and possibly a more expensive Fusion Cascade version that made the attacks Macro-Weapons.

It's statline is pretty much the same as a Crisis Suit's, barring an extra point in toughness which is negligible in Epic. It comes with the ability to Hit & Run, and can succeed automatically if it has drones, and can also attempt to regroup regardless of circumstanse, but while these abilities are interesting in 40k, transporting them over to Epic without adding too many fiddly extra bits shall be a bit difficult.

The last paragraph of the eldar's Hit and Run Tactics Special Rule would work best for the Hit & Run abilities, but IIRC that's not a good way to go, as it's fiddly still and would require extra space. The Infiltrator special ability, however, is a much simpler fit that works rather well, letting them engage more freely to fill in the gaps that the Tau Jetpack rule cannot fill, with it's inability to aid the 'Engage' order.

The ability to regroup is a bit of a more difficult kettle of fish in my opinion, as either Leader or Fearless could work either way, and both depending on how exactly the unit is fit into the army list as a whole. If, for example, they were an upgrade unit, Fearless could work best, as it applies only to the, As a support formation however, Leader might be the best choice instead, allowing them to clean up blast markers that could otherwise cripple them and get back into the show. A much simpler route would be to simply ignore the ability altogether and leave them be. I think the last might work the best, allowing them to exist as both a support formation to boost the FF survival of a core unit, or as a wandering engagement unit to stall or pick off an opposing army's units.

I think that covers most aspects of the XV-9 in the Tau Army List, other than the stats exactly and where it would be placed. And, of course, the price. As a FF niche unit in an army where FF capabilities are lacking, there should be a bit of a points premium. But that point can come later, if you all are actually receptive to this idea I've brainstormed and put forth. (At least, I assume I'm the only one that's done so. A search for XV-9 turned up nothing in these forums).

Oh, yes, stats:

XV9 'Havoc' Close Support Armour Suit(Suit? Team? Going suit, even though in 40k they're FA and are 1-3, similar to XV-8 team org, because they're even more elite and balancing a single suit seems easier than an entire team.)

Type: Infantry
Speed: 30 cm
Armour: 3+
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+(3+? SM Devs are 3+, and I figure they're shot-ranged shooting abilities are similar, though going with standard tac 4+ might be better to test first.)

Weapon
Dual Twin-Linked Burstcannons or Twin-Linked Fusion Cascades

DTLBC:
Range: 15cm/(15cm)
Firepower:AP3+/Small Arms
Notes: N/A / Extra Attack(+1)

TLFC:
Range:15cm/(15cm)
Firepower:MW 4+/Small Arms
Notes:N/A / Macro-Weapon, Extra Attack(+1)


ARRRRGH! Over an hour spent trying to format the stats before I gave up and just listed them. Any help on how to make them a pretty block? Reasoning behind the stats is as follows, in addition to the little notes in the stats themselves. Standard weapons are a single unit, the Dual Twin-Linked Burst Cannons, as 2x TLBC with Extra Attack +1 might cause confusion as to whether you get two extra attacks, or just a single. AP3+ was an extension of the Stealth Suit's MSBCannons, as I was goign to give them 2x AP4+ attacks to be equivalent, but simplified it to a single AP3+ when I made them Dual instead of 2x. I'm sure someone can mathhammer it out. The Fusion Cascades were a bit of a ponder, as they do d3 attacks each in the 40k. For the suit, going TL for a pair seemed logical, and dropping them to 4+ from the Crisis Suit's 5+ should make up for the multiple shots compared to the stand of Crisis Suits. As a stand of XV-8's and XV-1/2's are made up of an entire team's shooting, with the XV-8's getting three different shots, I figure this should be rather balancing. I hope, not sure...sleepy.


Hurmm, while writing this post out, I've also been hunting around a bit, and these look like they could be suitable stand-ins for the XV-9 suit.


Also, not sure if this had been noticed yet, but the aircraft burst cannon names seem to switch back and forth between 'Burst Cannons' and 'Twin Burst Cannons' with no change in stats. This a typo? C&P error?

Whatever the choice, I spent too many hours typing this all up when I should have been asleep, so I leave you all for a few hours to, hopefully, give me feedback while my brain loops back into legibility.


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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:26 am 
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I agree that, if introduced, the XV9 suits could be statted as FF-orientated units.

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:56 am 
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Notice he says "if introduced...." :D .

Thanks for putting this all together Twighlight. I like the theory behind it. Implementation at this stage and form of the list might be a bit late to add in though. It could conceivably mean starting over for the entire list and there'd be a lot people against that. Personally I'd like to see Onyx's proposal take form and change the list to incorporate proper FF units with a penalty to activate those in engagement. The XV9 would slot in wonderfully then.


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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:23 pm 
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Quote:
Notice he says "if introduced...." :D .

Notice also, that I did not say "NO".

You cannot paint me as universally "anti-FF" for the Tau, when I am currently proposing FF4+ for the Manta, amongst other modifications...

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 Post subject: Re: My thoughts on the current state of the Tau.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:00 pm 
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Well, if one were to introduce a FF-capable combat suit for the Tau, why reinvent the wheel? Why not just upgrade the XV8 to FF4+? A stand of these are armed with a good mix of powerful short and medium ranged weapons, such as rapid fire plasma guns and fusion blasters. The question is what would be easier/better for the list to implement though? A new type of Crisis suit with good FF, would it not be a strong competitor with the XV8 (which is the iconic combat suit of the Tau) for points in people's army lists? Would such a unit be core or support? Many questions...


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