Dobbsy wrote:
zombocom wrote:
I'm not a fan of huge marine formations; ATSKNF becomes disproportionally good on large formations.
Yes, this is my point. I'm fully aware of this issue and I'm not so sure the additional LFs to GHs is such a great idea. As menioned I don't like the replacement idea either.
Matt and Morgan, I fully understand your view on GHs but what is your reasoning behind your views on the LFs? Is it because they die easily? Are they completely OTT? What's the issue with the no-leader Leader ability?
Cheers
The problem with the no-leader Leader, is that firstly, it doesn't appear it's paid for (50pts for +1 AP/+2AT is something I'd pay). The second is the ridiculous levels of BM needed to suppress, turn to turn. Yes, a Devastator Squad with a character does the same thing, but you change the dynamics of the formation when you're required to pay for the character, including paying for stuff that may not be useful.
Then there's the Long Fang Spam. While I know Tacticals tend to be meh in the core list, that doesn't mean they should be in the specific lists. As it stands, Matt's "1GH + XClaw + X+1LF" list seems to be the way it'll happen.
And those Claws will be Sky or Swift, because BloodClaws are priced out of reasonableness. Same cost as Grey Hunters, worse Init, worse FF. Same cost as SkyClaws, worse movement. Skyclaws lack Rhinos, but move as fast without them, meaning the tradeoff is +2 crap Units vs Unhindered.
The biggest problem I see with Grey Hunters vs Long Fangs is that Grey Hunters suck so much in comparison. The main reason for Grey Hunters seems to be ThunderHawk Assault, which SkyClaws are better at (Initiative not being a factor, there).
As for the Long Fangs, there's also a fluff background issue I have. The background I've read tends to suggest that the reason for the increase in per capita Heavy Weapons, is the heavy decrease in Marine numbers. Looking at Lexicanum, I see the following.
"Each squad is unique in that it doesn't ever receive reinforcements, making the higher level squads smaller in number compared to the lowest Blood Claw pack. Many Blood Claw packs start with as many as fifteen marines. However, losses take their toll, and by the time a Blood Claw squad reaches the level of Grey Hunter, normally only 9 or 10 are left. As they age, further losses limit the squad sizes of Long Fangs down to just 5 or less."
Not sure how accurate that is with the current fluff (GW retconning is my major pet peeve), but if accurate, that means that a BloodClaw Formation is 2 packs, a Grey Hunter Formation is 3 packs, and a Long Fang Formation is 4 packs. Compared to the 2/3/2 of standard Marines. It's already heavy disproportionate without taking into account LFSpam.
Morgan Vening