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[Units] Attack Bikes

 Post subject: Re: [Units] Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:46 pm 
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I too think Attack Bikes really shouldn't be LV... If the only reason is that you only have 1 on a stand, I don't think it's a good reason to make them LV, they are really bikes, in 40k they have a toughness not an armour value.

It's one think I've noticed working on my Nurgle is that there have been a few models where I've had to add extra handlers to the model to make it legal.. Eg. Big Mutants, OK it's perfectly reasonable to have 3 of the old minotaurs on a base.. but if you want one really big model I don't think you should be penalised. With my Plague Riders, I've had to add tentacle and nurglings on the base to get it up to the magic number as 2 on a base would have been silly.. Daemon Princes... Chaos Spawn.. I think there should definitely be some kind of qualifier to say this kind of thing is fine with certain units.. we all know deep down we would never have a problem playing someone with 1 Attack Bike, Necron Destroyer, Chaos Spawn on a stand. But technically it's not allowed.

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 Post subject: Re: [Units] Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:06 pm 
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The numbers on a stand really shouldn't matter in this day an age anyway, there only seems to be a hard core following playing epic that i can see.

It's not as if someone would complain about a stand not having enough models, if they were to say it wasn't legal I would probably ask 'legal for what'?

However that is a discussion for a different thread.


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 Post subject: Re: [Units] Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:38 pm 
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Morgan Vening wrote:
Dobbsy wrote:
Well I would imagine that riding the weight of a bike into someone's shins constitutes the good CC stat :D but I'm in the opposite boat regarding FF as I feel the FF value (and theory) of handlebar mounted Bolters to be ludicrously inaccurate - but who am I to debate reality in a fantasy/Sci-fi setting? :D

Well... reality and GW don't really have much of a connection.

The entire concept of a two wheeled vehicle being used in any meaningful way in a combat role is absolutely ridiculous. Besides the obvious terrain issues, and tire issues, ramming is completely out. Unless hit dead on, a minor hit to the sides of the front wheel, or a small jolt to the handlebars at all but the lowest speeds, will result in a crash. The fairly static profile makes them a much easier target, unless going at very high speeds, where even a slight change in balance, will result in a crash.

Even as a 'firefighter', aiming the bolters while maintaining control would be difficult at best. It'd be like firing a gun with your feet. Sure, it can be done, but any sense of accuracy or control is out the window. The close combat approach seems the most effective means of doing more damage than actually walking. And even then, you better hope your weapon cleaves through the enemy at about what you expect, else you'll over/undercompensate, and will result in a crash.

Bikes are fun. Bikes are economical. Bikes are not inherently stable except at high speeds on tarmac. Bikes at high speeds on tarmac don't take even minor external changes well. Bikes at slow speeds are bloody hinderingly awful. Minor incidents at slow speeds are hugely inconvenient. Minor incidents at high speeds are hugely dangerous.

That a Biker in 40K is in any way combat effective, is laughable. But what do I know, they look 'cool'. Dakka dakka Waaagh! Whatever.

Morgan Vening


pah, you just need more practice Morgan. I can fire my shotgun perfectly accurately from my bicycle using my feet AND at high speed, though I obviously can't pedal at the same time (I could get a hand crank though). I'm sure superhuman beings with 2 hearts and all that stuff can manage.


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 Post subject: Re: [Units] Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:07 pm 
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Just a couple quick design concept notes:

Toughness and armor values are only guidelines. When necessary they can and should be discarded. Eldar Wraithlords have T in 40K, but they are AVs in Epic.


The assumptions of numbers of troops on a stand are relevant in terms of figuring out what the units should be vulnerable to. A normal infantry squad is assumed to be invulnerable to AT shots not because the weapons can't kill the squad but because killing 1-2 men still leaves the rest of the squad combat-effective.

The assumed number of troops per unit can also be used for determining other stats. For example, SM Bikes pack a lot more firepower than Tacticals, but there are only 2-4 (average 3) on a base instead of 3-7 (average 5) so they have the same FF value. The same thing applies to armor saves - +1 T on bikes offsets the lower numbers on an Epic unit, so they get the same armor.


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 Post subject: Re: [Units] Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:33 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
Just a couple quick design concept notes:

Toughness and armor values are only guidelines. When necessary they can and should be discarded. Eldar Wraithlords have T in 40K, but they are AVs in Epic.

And he is a Monstrous Creature. All Monstrous Creatures with the exeption of the Chaos Daemon Prince are AV in Epic.

Quote:
The assumptions of numbers of troops on a stand are relevant in terms of figuring out what the units should be vulnerable to. A normal infantry squad is assumed to be invulnerable to AT shots not because the weapons can't kill the squad but because killing 1-2 men still leaves the rest of the squad combat-effective.

Correct.

Quote:
The assumed number of troops per unit can also be used for determining other stats. For example, SM Bikes pack a lot more firepower than Tacticals, but there are only 2-4 (average 3) on a base instead of 3-7 (average 5) so they have the same FF value. The same thing applies to armor saves - +1 T on bikes offsets the lower numbers on an Epic unit, so they get the same armor.

Also correct. With the minimum number of models per "Mounted Infantry" on a base (2 models) would be the same as a single Attack Bike if you compare Wounds. But the Attack Bike has the vulnerability that a high Strength weapon (Krag-Missile or Lascannon) would destroy it outright which qualifies for Light Vehicle status.
So if you want Infantry status for the Attack Bike then i propose modeling one or two Bike units on the base with the Attack Bike.

So to have a true to fluff Bike Detachment with anInfantry Attack BIke there are two options:

a) Model 2 Bikes per unit and the Attack Bike alone. Then you have 4 Bike Units (8 Marines) and one Attack BIke unit (2 Marines) which form a complete Squadron (10 Marines).

b) Model 3 Bikes per unit and 2 Bikes and one Attack Bike for the Attack Bike unit. Then you have 2 Bike units (6 Marines) and one Attack Bike unit (4 Marines) which form a complete Squadron (10 Marines).
Then two Squadrons (4 Bike units and 2 Attack Bike units) could form the Bike Detachment.

Note that this are 2 Squadrons/Squads of 10 Marines each. The same as in the Assault Detachment. Bacjground wise Assault Marines are supposed to drive the Bikes/Attack Bikes of the Battle Companies.

Persnally i favour option b).

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 Post subject: Re: [Units] Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 11:29 pm 
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The real challenge is not so much in the wounds but in the transport. You could just do a "counts as" for transport purposes, but in general I think that there is no game balance reason why attack bikes are Light Vehicles.


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 Post subject: Re: [Units] Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:52 pm 
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mattthemuppet wrote:
Morgan Vening wrote:
Dobbsy wrote:
Well I would imagine that riding the weight of a bike into someone's shins constitutes the good CC stat :D but I'm in the opposite boat regarding FF as I feel the FF value (and theory) of handlebar mounted Bolters to be ludicrously inaccurate - but who am I to debate reality in a fantasy/Sci-fi setting? :D

Well... reality and GW don't really have much of a connection.

The entire concept of a two wheeled vehicle being used in any meaningful way in a combat role is absolutely ridiculous. Besides the obvious terrain issues, and tire issues, ramming is completely out. Unless hit dead on, a minor hit to the sides of the front wheel, or a small jolt to the handlebars at all but the lowest speeds, will result in a crash. The fairly static profile makes them a much easier target, unless going at very high speeds, where even a slight change in balance, will result in a crash.

Even as a 'firefighter', aiming the bolters while maintaining control would be difficult at best. It'd be like firing a gun with your feet. Sure, it can be done, but any sense of accuracy or control is out the window. The close combat approach seems the most effective means of doing more damage than actually walking. And even then, you better hope your weapon cleaves through the enemy at about what you expect, else you'll over/undercompensate, and will result in a crash.

Bikes are fun. Bikes are economical. Bikes are not inherently stable except at high speeds on tarmac. Bikes at high speeds on tarmac don't take even minor external changes well. Bikes at slow speeds are bloody hinderingly awful. Minor incidents at slow speeds are hugely inconvenient. Minor incidents at high speeds are hugely dangerous.

That a Biker in 40K is in any way combat effective, is laughable. But what do I know, they look 'cool'. Dakka dakka Waaagh! Whatever.

Morgan Vening


pah, you just need more practice Morgan. I can fire my shotgun perfectly accurately from my bicycle using my feet AND at high speed, though I obviously can't pedal at the same time (I could get a hand crank though). I'm sure superhuman beings with 2 hearts and all that stuff can manage.


Bike troopers are obviously dragoons. The move mounted and fight dismounted. The reason they have high FF and CC values is because they can strap extra ammo, grenades and pig stickers to their vehicles. When caught by fire during movement, they skid to a halt, drop the bikes with the heavily armored underside towards the enemy and use them as cover - like Custer's cavalry. That's how I always imagined it, from way back in 1990 when I started playing Epic...

Attack bikes work the same way, they have that extra side car to be able to port around a heavy weapon much quicker than a marine on foot. Being able to shoot while mounted is a bonus and might be useful for ambush "shoot and scoot" situations, or you take it off the side car and put it in a good firing position as needed. That much being said, I bet the attack bike would be harder to get into cover (as you can't just put it down on it's side), and you could get hit while dismounting the gun from the carriage. This makes the classification as LV kind of reasonable to me.


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 Post subject: Re: [Units] Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 1:01 am 
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Well that's if we use the theory of Dragoons in Epic.... :D


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 Post subject: Re: [Units] Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 5:07 pm 
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Yeah, well, its just an opinion that obviously saves me a lot of head ache. Feel free to ignore it, of you will. Me, I got the problem solved. :P


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 Post subject: Re: [Units] Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:39 am 
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Hena - has a decision been made on ABs? Will they be made infantry so they can be carried in Thunderhawks?


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 Post subject: Re: [Units] Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:39 pm 
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Ok, now just for a laugh I'm gonna point out that there is one aircraft that "Attack Bikes" are allowed to ride in in the core rules... the Ork Landa!

Also, the Ork Landa is not allowed to carry Ork Warbikes. ;D ;D ;D

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 Post subject: Re: [Units] Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:20 pm 
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lol that's hilarious!

And thanks Hena, I probably read that but 7 pages of posts is a hard thing to keep up with. :D Thanks for "officialising" it.


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 Post subject: Re: [Units] Attack Bikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:34 pm 
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ROFL@Landa.

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