I agree that what E&C and yme-loc suggest for HH's is probably the best solution atm. But I'm still not sure it will make them more attractive compared to broadsides. Broadsides have an effective range of 105cm so have a reasonable area of effect. Should we perhaps consider reducing the range of the railgun slightly to make the speed of the HH a bit more of a bonus. What do people think about that?

On the recon formation I think we should be cautious with changes due to the reliance on ML's. I still think a player should at least have the option to take a 6 strong tetra formation to take advantage of ML's. Putting upgrades on the formation will limit the number of activations and tau need 11+ to be effective. How about recon formations consisting of 6 tetras for 150 points with 3 being able to be replaced as piranhas for free? I would have no problem with this.

As additional points does anyone have ideas on how to make drones worth considering or a points decrease on stealth suits?

Drones, no idea. As a formation, Tetras just seem so much better a formation, even with their Limitations (Light Vehicle). As an upgrade, they just seem way too ineffective. Too slow for a mechanized formation, wasted speed on a foot formation. And in some instances, just makes for way too easy BM's. I'm not necessarily an advocate for Disposable, but still, there's something wrong. Not sure on how Drones are integrated, but it looks like the Devilfish is capable of carrying 12 troops, leaving 2 slots free. And all the other Hammerheads and the like seem to have Drones sticking out all over. Maybe give all of them "Transport 1 Gun Drone" might make the upgrade more useful. Then again, maybe not.

For the Stealth Suits, I can't find much background information (source?), but I'd find it weird if they weren't ex-Crisis pilots. Seems like the stealth/infiltrate role would be an elite position. That they're not 1+ Initiative seems weird to me. Especially given their propensity towards attracting BM's. Then again, the same could be said for Broadsides, and without a significant revamp, they can't really be put to 1+. But from personal experience only, even a further drop of points is unlikely to have me field StealthSuits with a 2+ Initiative.

Morgan Vening

E&C --> I agree that reducing the points cost of the HH is the simplest solution regarding the railgun business. I don't think this solution would do the HH justice though. For what its worth I feel the HH should be a better MBT. I think giving all Railguns Lance, increasing the BS points cost and upgunning the Ion Cannon to AP3+ and the Fusion Cannon MW4+ would be the better option in this case.

Ok, a couple of comments and then back to the grindstone.



People take HHs. I take them all the time. So do some of our other local Tau players. I'm not saying that the formation doesn't need some tuning, but I disagree that it is unusable.

No Lance. It's an Eldar solution to a problem and I'm not interested in taking that path.

RECONs: I am open to a price adjustment, but I don't think the min/maxing is a real issue. There was quite a discussion regarding the "optimal" setting as far as choice of vehicles goes before the crash. The point is, it depends on how you use them within your army. I prefer 2/4 Tetra/Piranha, understanding that others prefer other mixes. I don't see a balance reason to formalize this to a particular structure.



This statement is not comparing apples to apples. Unless I am mistaken (and I am getting verification from a strong local Tau player) this statement assumes that Shield drones are included in the basic cost of the Crisis suit, when in fact they are not. So in reality, the real comparison is 2+/5++ to 3+. If I was going to bend the stats in the favor of the terminators, I could just as easily add Storm shields to provide a 2+/3++ formation. So let's make sure we are being consistent when comparing stats.

Manta: This is going to be somewhat problematical. The Manta is basically a square peg trying to fit into a round hole. It is a starship with huge guns and transport. It is not a Warlord with wings. Consequently, it's shielding and assault values are never going to make it a viable assault vehicle. That's not how it was used and there is plenty of annecdotal evidence to support that position. It is not a Fearless vehicle, it runs away from Landspeeders...and not tens of Landspeeders, a handful of them. That tells me that it is either vulnerable or too valuable as a strategic resource to risk. Even against the foot slogging Elysians locked into a fixed location, the Mantas dropped their cargo at a distance and the cargo advanced on their own. I do think we should consider upping the Shielding a pip. 5+ seems way too weak to me. So possibilities for change are cost, shielding, and potentially FF.



They are elites, but were originally described as "lone wolves" that didn't fit in with the normal operations of the Fire caste. No mention of them being ex-crisis suits to my knowledge.



I understand the desire for 1+. The problem is that seems to come with a price increase as they are still pretty good now, which defeats the purpose of making them more attractive as a formation. My inclination is to leave them as is.

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W00t! Welcome back, Honda.

Indeed, welcome back.

Hammerheads: So, if you don't like Lance for the Railgun, what are your thoughts on how to tweak this unit?

Actually Honda if you read back some of the comments about these guys a few of us agree they aren't "pretty good now", they're just average since they had their weapons reduced in stats too. Giving back 1+ initiative won't need a price increase IMO. As you say above "they are elites"....

The Epic rules assume that Shield Drones are included.
That's my consistency, the design concept that states that Shield Drones are present.


All fine by me. I recommend all three.

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Dobbsy, I did read the comments and acknowledge that not everyone agrees with that statement. I'm not saying they are done, but they are not a severe under performer. They are not an "easy" choice to take right now, which in my mind isn't quite right. Stealths play a significant role in Tau warfare and it seems like they should be more attractive. Their stats have been bumped up and down over the various versions with the attendant "they're too good" or "they're crap". That tends to indicate that they are very sensitive to any change, hence my caution to just go in willy nilly and throw around new stats.

As far as the weapons loadout goes, I don't recall it changing much over the past couple of versions, only their cost and the potential for 1+ Initiative. I will look into that and confirm my understanding of their capabilities.



The Epic rules should not and in fact that is a general step out away from a lot, not all, but a lot of the design framework for other Epic formations/units. We build formations based on their base loadout and tweak when necessary. That basic position is why Devilfish are not fielded in Epic with SMS, or Stealths with Fusion Blasters, even though they were "no brainer" configurations in previous and current versions of 40K.

Is the design consistent across all platforms and lists? Definitely not, but it is usually bent when trying to emphasize list design (e.g. Seekers and Marker Lights).

So do a majority of 40K Tau players fielding Crisis suits take Shield Drones? Yep. Is it standard armament? No.

Comparing Crisis to Terminators is not apples to apples.

_________________
Remember Taros? We do.

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Honda, the Epic Tau design notes flat out state that Tau unit stats are assumed to include the abilities of squad-level Drones.



I'm comparing apples to apples.

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Honda, I don't believe you are portraying a complete picture of a Manta's abilities in your previous posts.

Here's a quote of a reply I made in a previous thread.


Changes to cost and FF are the minimum requirements (Fearless is definitely called for aswell as a Markerlight). I don't really see a need to improve the Tau Deflector Shield. There are other more important adjustments needed.

At some point we are going to need to make the Tau playable in Epic Armageddon. Shooting the opposition of the board rarely works in Epic. Making sure units have realistic, accurate stats and using activation modifiers to represent race characteristics works perfectly (see the Ork army list for proof).

I would even go so far as to include the Kroot in my "-2 to Engage" rule suggestion (making the whole army -2 to Engage). This would reflect the Tau commanders hesitation to waste assets in close combat. With the correct adjustments to FF on certain units, this would allow the Tau to be able to deter opponents from making FF engagements without significant risk (as it should be).

I spose this is my last gasp...

Cheers.

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While I can have or leave Fearless, adding a Markerlight to the Manta makes sense because there's one on the model.

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So, I will freely admit that I've read that a number of times and the significance of the statement
did not sink in. My bad. I had always assumed that it had more to do with modeling issues vs.
game mechanics.

That being said, Crisis are still in no way the same apple as terminators. Crisis own terminators when it comes to shooting, but the converse is also true. I think that taking non-standard options to upgrade a formation's capabilities encourages scope creep in the list as well in others.

Regardless, increasing the saves of the Crisis formations is not an option I intend to investigate.






@Onyx: Never give up hope.

As stated before, cost and FF are up for discussion. I neglected to mention this before due to the
haste in typing my note, but I'm also fine with the Manta having the Markerlight ability...especially
since it has one on the model.

I also acknowledge your previous comments about the Manta vs. Imperial forces. However, I think where
our positions differ is in how the Manta addressed threats.

1. At Hydro Plant 23-30, the Manta had free reign to shoot at the Elysians and there was very little
the Elysians could do about it. Acknowledged. However, IA3 is very clear that in spite of the immobile nature of the dropped troops and their lack of heavy weapons, the Mantas still landed at a
distance, disembarked the transported troops, them began shooting. There is no mention of the Manta
landing troops in the face of enemy forces, even though their abilities to prevent such an action
were limited.

The bottom line is that there is no evidence that the Tau put their Mantas at risk. We cannot even claim that the FW authors
are unaware of the possibility as they very clearly describe similar actions by the Avenging Sons
in the assault on the Governor's Place and again with the Raptors with Thunderhawks.

In latter actions, as stated before, when engaged by a handful of Landspeeders, the Mantas were chased off. The fact that there were casualties on the Landspeeder side does not change the result.

This leads me to conclude, in the absence of any other evidence, that Fearless is not warranted.

2. The Damocles Crusade - Manta's were used to counter Imperial SHTs and Titans. However there is
very little in the way of description as to "how" the opposing forces were countered. I don't think
it is too much of stretch given the Manta's armament to assume that in some fashion, shields were
dropped on the part of the titans and the Mantas, with superior range and hitting power, took down the titans by shooting.

Is it possible that the Mantas "engaged" the titans? Sure. Is it the optimal way to attack a titan
given the titans CC capabilities? No. Again, that leads me to steer the design towards a vehicle
that transports and shoots.

It seems obvious to me that if the Manta had no guns, or only defensive weapons, we'd have nailed this thing a long time ago. We'd cost it as a big transport and be done with it. Unfortunately, it
has really nice guns...but at the end of the day, they are still carried by what is in essence a
very large transport. Yes, it's a warship that engages starship sized enemy, but it doesn't assault them, it shoots stuff at them...from a distance.

So, this may disappoint many of you, but I am not going to make it something that it is not.

That's it for now, I'm off to do other crazy stuff.

_________________
Remember Taros? We do.

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Honda, it would seem that page 119 does support the Tau using a Manta as a front line unit (aswell as being a combat transport as you have mentioned). It did not drop off any forces at a distance in this case. The ground forces were already in place for the assault and the Manta swooped in and suppressed the Elysians at point blank range. This is something that does not really seem possible with the present Tau army list in a game of Epic Armageddon.

A non Fearless Manta is not really playable in Epic Armageddon.

The Manta's transport ability will rarely be used in a game of Epic Armageddon (except maybe using Planetfall). To have half the army tied up in one activation is not a good way to play Tau and it is too easily destroyed/broken to risk it this way.

If you keep it as a non Fearless unit, it will spend the few games that it is used in the back field of the Tau's half of the board and will take pot shots at enemy War Engines. That is all it can do. This is not a full and true representation of a Manta's abilities.
If it is Engaged by a half competent player, it will lose. I have seen this happen more than once.

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Night all.

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Actually, to me, that sounds exactly like losing an engagement and becoming broken. Fearless units do that too. Had the manta not been fearless it would somehow have been almost destroyed by the action of fleeing away.

The manta always used to be fearless you know. Fearless accidentally got left off in E&C's revision as a typo.