I can't see it being a real issue.. 6 men, 4+ save.. OK they don't take hackdowns.. but I can't see them being much harder to shift than a SM Tactical Squad. The Break easier much easier.

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I can't see it being a real issue.. 6 men, 4+ save.. OK they don't take hackdowns.. but I can't see them being much harder to shift than a SM Tactical Squad. They break so much easier.

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It's not a game balance problem... As Neal said before, the EC army worked and was balanced - it just played differently as these small formations broke and scurried off to rally in a good position. I don't think anyone thought it overpowered - the complaint is that this is somehow "gamey" or "boring."

Questions for People:

Premise
It is reasonable to suggest the following:
- Death Guard all became Plague Marines
- World Eaters all became Berserkers or CC specialists
- Thousand Sons would have a mixture of Rubric and other forces (whether Marine or Human based)

So, is it reasonable to suggest that with the Emperor's Children:
- Devastator Squads became the Noise Marines?
- All other units retained a role similar to their previous 'Marine' aspect yet have become quite extreme? (hence the whole legion did not become Noise Marines)

As you can see I am open to reviewing/changing the list (regardless of my own views) for its success, so any help is appreciated.

More Help Required: Ecstacy

The cult lists will always suffer with the problem of expensive units and therefore lower activations. One way to assist the lists from not becoming a mess after the 2nd turn are special rules, abilities, and stats.

As special rules/abilities/stats go:
- World Eaters have an ability that almost guarantees a successful charge. This protects them from not being out in the open or doing nothing
- Death Guard have increased Armour to see them through a battle
- Thousand Sons - yet to see what Neal does (if anything)

The one thing that I introduced was Ecstacy. It means that the EC can stay within a chargable or influential range of the enemy and still have a normal chance to rally from being broken. The rule may seem insignificant on paper, yet it was one thing that the opponent was very aware of. In effect, it allowed me to keep a whole broken army (just about) in play without having to move outside of the 30cm (to not attain the -1) and therefore be placing what limited units were left out of the game. It allowed me to threaten the game.

I do want to keep the rule as I believe it is necessary for this force. If you read it you will also see how it falls in nicely with any 'fluff' element regarding the EC. Although I am set to keep this rule for the next release, I am still (as always) interested in people's thoughts on the rule.

So, what are your thoughts?

Without Ecstasy the formations are less effective so they can be cheaper, which also addresses the stated problems.

Fair point Neal. I will crunch the numbers...

There was also one other option I wanted to leave with people to see if it has any support (forget about Ecstacy as a rule for the moment):

For the other Emperor's Children INF units (not incl Noise Marines), remove Indomitable and replace it with ATSKNF (as discussed on other threads in the past).

Just throwing it out there...

ATSKNF I think is a better indication of how EC work. I'm very much in favour of it for the EC list. I would use it across the whole army and drop fearless off the Noise Marines.. I consider fearless as more of a command and control issue rather than an innate ability of the unit, in the BL list NMs might be fearless as they are under a BL commander that controls a lot of their excesses and stops the formation falling apart.

if you went with ATSKNF across the army... And as all EC are really noise marines keep it that way. You don't need to call them Noise marines just have every formation with Noise Marine weapons, they will have internal names to refer to different setups anyway. EG. have Emperor Children Havoc Squads armed with 2 Blastmasters, normal Emperor Children Legionaires armed with 1 Blastmaster and Sonic Blasters, Emperor Children Blademasters with Doom sirens, whips and swords to give them First Strike.

All those units are obviously Noise Marines, but none of them are referred to internally as Noise Marines, so don't clash with the BL versions.

The Emperors Palace is a great example how massed EC are not fearless. Instead of doing what they were ordered to do, they go bored, left the siege, split up into separate warbands and went on a tour of Earth rendering people down into drugs and worrying the sheep.

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It has also occured to me that units outside of Noise Marines do not even need a special rule (such as Indomitable). Effectively, instead of getting caught up in the 'all fearless' discussions, and trying to find a better skill, I could simply have Chaos versions of the legion in the list without skills beyond those that effect their battlefield role.

So have the disrupt, the first strike etc. without Indomitable. No need for mixed units to start with and maybe even allow the option of upgrades if people desire this. Doing this may take some heat off the 'all Noise Marine' formation that only has one or two roles within the army.

It would also reduce the cost of formations.

No tiers. No restrictions. If a player really wants to be competative, they would be wise to take different elements within the army.

It would just have to function differently and be iconic enough to diviorce itself from the BL. Maybe this is the best way to go.

Just some more 'food for thought'.

mageboltrats suggestion looks really good

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Yes it does. Let us be realistic here however.

I have more chance of pleasing the majority and gaining playtests if I produce the list with no over-reaching rule such as Fearless, Indomitable, ATSKNF, and Ecstasy.

It will also make the whole list quite affordable (I have just about finished the balancing of points).

From that point of 'virtually nothing', it can be built up if required (I doubt that it will need to be in all honesty). It appears to be a better position than to start with everything and then trying to price it down.

I am sure I can win you over

I have just updated the list to the new version which can be found on the first post or here:

Emperor's Children updated 14 May 10:10PM AEST

Changes made:

- Removed Indomitable as an ability
- Removed Ecstasy Rule
- Removed tiered restrictions for purchasing formations
- Sonic Retinue is now the Noise Marine Retinue with 6 Fearless Noise Marine Units
- Removed Possessed formation
- Added Sonar Formation
- Added Sonar Lord
- Added new Decadent Unit with Daemonic Pact
- Repriced all effected units
- Apostate of Rapture had Leader removed and dropped to 25 points
- Added Noise Marine upgrade
- Repriced Dreadclaws
- Renamed Defiler Formation

I hope all the above meets most of the feedback provided. There are many differences there to set it apart from the BL list and cheaper (yet balanced) formations to ensure a competative list

No doubt points will be scrutinised and I still have to look over things such as the Defilers, Daemon Knights and all the War Engines.

Note: Seekers still need to be reviewed

I have tried to make it more enticing to use Daemons by giving the DP to the Decadent Formation and reducing the cost of the Apostate. Seeing as they are also the only Drop Formation, hopefully this entices people to use them for one or more reasons

Let me know what you think. If it works I may adopt many of the ideas to the World Eaters as well.

Cheers.....

I think this is a good approach.

I think if the list is going to drop Indomitable, a different morale rule like "Ecstatic" would be fine.

I'm not too keen on TSKNF. I realize TSKNF fits mechanically and I generally don't have a problem using established abilities to simulate effects that don't fit the labels, e.g. Teleport to simulate "super ambush" ability. However, that particular terminology is so iconically Space Marine that it actually bothers me.

I think before going with TSKNF it might be worth looking into some of the "resist BM" abilities that were tested with Squats/Demiurg. I seem to recall some of the ones that worked but which were passed over included the "no 30cm penalty to rally" and "BMs equal to # of units +1 to break".

I thought the same yet decided to start at the bare basics of a list. I think it works.

When you get time Neal, let me know what you think. A rule such as Ecstasy may push all retinues up by 25 points. Then I also have to account for the rest of the army that may use such a rule.

Either way, eager to gain some feedback.

Cheers....