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World Eater Development concerns

 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:11 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Feb. 18 2010, 04:58 )

Here is what I took the NetEA to be:

NetEA Board: Made up of all the 'Race Champs' (if required): Final decisions and ability to remove each other based on majority votes

Overall Race Champions: Guide, appoint and direct sub champs for particular areas of development

Sub Champs: Are appointed to be a medium for lists under their perview to control submissions, parity and collaboration

That is pretty much the setup, except that there's a rules committee made up of me, Hena and Chroma that is the top tier.  We name the ACs and let them go.  They decide on their own development strategy and which variants they want to "officially" ride herd over in terms of the NetEA project.

As of right now, it's Steve54's call on the Khorne variant CSM lists.  I suspect that the above compromise of "legionary" for Dobbsy and "warband" for you will get the nod as far as NetEA but I want to emphasize that the NetERC doesn't want to micromanage the ACs and we give them a lot of latitude (which has some weaknesses but a lot of good points as well).

==

There are a lot of variant lists on the boards that aren't part of the NetEA project.  In that respect, it is totally wild west.  It's a hobby and we're here to talk about it.  We don't have the power to tell someone not to work on their own fun project and wouldn't want to if we did.  People work on the stuff they like.  Just to throw out one example of that, the Gue'Vesa list for the Tau human auxiliaries was designed soup to nuts without any "official" status from the Tau AC.

No one is going to tell you that you can't work on your own pure "World Eaters" army list.  It's an open forum.  However, the community at large wants to get things done and sees 'competing' lists as an obstacle to that goal for all the reasons people have already stated.  Even though it's not going to be banned, a lot of people will discourage you from doing it.

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 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:32 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ Feb. 18 2010, 23:11 )

However, the community at large wants to get things done and sees 'competing' lists as an obstacle

Thanks Neal

It is appreciated.

At the end of the day, I guess I am pretty 'black and white' with my belief in that if an AC is not even prepared to playtest his/her own list within a year of games played, it is not a 'competing' list. It then becomes a question of whether it is ego over list progress. Why hold a list if you are not actively developing it? Why hold it to ransom over other developments?

That is where I coming from and I feel that few people (that have never met me in person) seem to understand. I am very black and white and I do not understand why things such as a game development as this are not so cut and dry.

I would like to keep the "World Eaters" in the title of the list Morgan and I developed. If that were to be "World Eaters Warband list" or something similar, it would really alleviate many of my hang-ups about this whole process. World Eaters is a trademark - more so that Khorne - that is recognised across communities, that I have contacted out of my own initiative, that are interested in helping me out.

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 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:32 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Feb. 18 2010, 14:32 )

At the end of the day, I guess I am pretty 'black and white' with my belief in that if an AC is not even prepared to playtest his/her own list within a year of games played, it is not a 'competing' list. It then becomes a question of whether it is ego over list progress. Why hold a list if you are not actively developing it? Why hold it to ransom over other developments?

Frogbear, do you not also realize that "spamming" a whole bunch of your own playtests can be just as much of an "ego" hold over a list?  Especially if such playtests span multiple, significantly changed versions.  Your count of "20+" games doesn't actually hold much water if that's over 5+ revisions.

Honestly, it's *irrelevant* how many times an Army Champion playtests their own list; the true tests come from people not directly affiliated with the list playtesting it, fresh eyes bringing fresh perspectives.

Personal example: Earlier in Tyranid development, I'd posted many games and the list seemed pretty balanced to me, lots of play, development and editing; things were looking good!  Then a player in Neal's group, thousands of miles away, picked up the list, and put together an army that was, essentially, unstoppable because of rules interactions my own group, and others, hadn't seen... it forced a complete revision of the list... one that would not occured from my own internal testing.

You're taking not-so-subtle digs at Dobbsy because he hasn't "played" his list, but he *is* actively developing it, posting updates and asking for feedback; I'd say, statistically, the same number of "external" players have playtested both your lists, so you harping on him for not "self testing" his army comes off as a petty.  It's not his fault other people aren't testing his list, nor are they testing yours, interest just isn't that high.  

If you're going for a "everything Khorne" army, that is Bloodgors, and Bloodslaughters, and Bloodpacks, and all that, which objectively seems to be what interest you, why is the "World Eaters" name needed?  If your focus *isn't* World Eaters Legionaires, then why do you need the name?  Let the army stand and make its own name on its own merits.




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 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:48 pm 
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Why keep on about this Frogbear? An amicable agreement that would be in everyone's interests is easily within your reach and better for everyone than keeping dragging this on.

Just drop the World Eaters from your list title.
You can develop a general Khorne list that still allows you to run a Berzerker heavy list as you prefer and you have been playing, with extra toys too. It's just semantics, only a name and would be in everyone's interests.

While it's not ideal Morgan's is not the only list that has been theoretically developing anyway - Evil and Chaos's Vraksian Renegades went through two and a half years and 4 list versions of development without him ever having played it or seen it played (not sure if anyone played it at all till I used it for Ryan's Winter Warmer tournament last month).





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 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:58 pm 
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Just a quick background point - they do have World Eater tanks to provide shooting, but World Eater marines themselves are exclusively focussed on close combat in the current timeline. From the Index Astartes article:
Quote: 

The World Eaters have only one desire: to slay their enemies in close combat and take skulls for Khorne. To this end, the Legion cast aside their long ranged weapons and took up the chain-axe and pistol. The thirst for blood and slaughter has become such an overpowering need to the World Eaters that when battle is joined they rampage across the battlefield, roaring the name of Khorne, all strategy and tactics forgotten in their thirst for bloodshed.

And all GW background on the current state of the World Eaters says much the same thing. So from a background point of view at least, the 'World Eater' list should be the one in which power armoured infantry are CC focussed only. Other Khornate marine forces do use heavy weapons, however (the World Eaters have aggression implants as well as their devotion to Khorne, so are more crazed).  

*ducks for cover*





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 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:16 pm 
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Frogbear, you really don't seem to be getting it... there's nothing "official" about sub-champ positions, it's a mostly empty title that simply means "I'm the person people complain to about a given sub-list"; there's little power, little prestige, and little thanks.


You left out the "chicks". There's no leather clad sub-champion groupie chicks either.

The sub-champion's job is no MTV video, I can tell you.  :grin:

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 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:17 pm 
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if this isn't resolvable by a name change, why not make the focus on ways in which the 2 lists might be merged? Both Dobbsy and Frogbear can make a (long, most likely) list of things they do and don't want to see in a World Eaters list, both unit and rules-wise, then we can help them bash out the necessary compromises on here. If anything, have 2 distinct groups of players (and therefore, 2 different ways of looking at things), has to be a plus! I'm sure a better, more polished and balanced list can come of it. That would need, to some degree, a dropping of the ego issues around the 2 lists, but if both peeps feel strongly about having a polished WoE list, then surely that would be a necessary sacrifice?

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 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:53 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 18 2010, 11:27 )

Quote: 

Just rename your list to "World Eaters Assault Force" or whatever, Dobbsy renames his to "World Eaters Destruction Force" and the problems are once again solved

Agreed, if this happened, there would be no problem at all.

Like E&C states above, I should be able to keep "World Eaters" in the name and be fine with it. Frankly, I really do not want to relinquish that part of the name. "World Eaters Warband Force" is one that I like. I am open to other suggestions.

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 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:58 pm 
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"World Eaters Khorne Warband" gives the feel nicely I think. It's still mostly World Eater focused, but with a hint of the rampaging khorne hordes.

This subtle rename, combined with consistent stats between the two armies leaves us with no problems community-wise  :agree:




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 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:59 pm 
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I am open to other suggestions.


Pick a planet name.

So you could have:  "World Eaters, Vraksian Invasion Warband"
Whilst Dobbsy could have: "World Eaters, Armageddon Attack Force"

Or whatever.


"World Eaters Warband force" is awfully generic.

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 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:00 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ Feb. 19 2010, 04:58 )

"World Eaters Khorne Warband" gives the feel nicely I think. It's still mostly World Eater focused, but with a hint of the rampaging khorne hordes.

This subtle rename, combined with consistent stats between the two armies leaves us with no problems community-wise  :agree:

:agree:

I like it Zombo

Can we all call it peace now if I go on with "World Eaters Khorne Warband"?

:peace:  :)  :peace:

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 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:02 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 19 2010, 04:59 )

Quote: 

I am open to other suggestions.


Pick a planet name.

So you could have:  "World Eaters, Vraksian Invasion Warband"
Whilst Dobbsy could have: "World Eaters, Armageddon Attack Force"

Or whatever.


"World Eaters Warband force" is awfully generic.

Point take E&C. I am happy to think of something specific id that is required.

So I guess for mine "World Eaters Khorne Warband" is still too generic?




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 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:02 pm 
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Can we all call it peace now if I go on with "World Eaters Khorne Warband"?

As long as that name accurate describes what's contained in the list, sure. :)

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 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:03 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 19 2010, 05:02 )

Quote: 

Can we all call it peace now if I go on with "World Eaters Khorne Warband"?

As long as that name accurate describes what's contained in the list, sure. :)

:agree:

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 Post subject: World Eater Development concerns
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:05 pm 
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Why don't we all just wait for Steve54's input.

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