Food for thought:  I played against the Tau this weekend. It was my second game against them in as many weeks, this time with the Necrons.  It was a very tight game we never finished but he resigned for timesake.  We saw it going to points which would have put it in my favor but you never know.  Anyway, here are some topics that come up...

Manta: 700 points?  I know people keep saying its underpowered but not from my perspective.  The thing is a beast that is probably underpriced by about 50 points or more.  Difficult to approach, hard to break, and deflectors that don't go away.  Compare it against like units from other armies and it is certainly on sale.  Ron's brought that thing the last six games he's played and has lost 2 of them.  Not saying it is the reason for him winning, just saying it doesn't seem to underperform either.  

Fighter-Bombers: that formation is dynamite.  It killed my Elysians and Necrons with reckless abandon until shot from the sky.  They dish out a sizable amount of firepower.

Broadsides: I know I am opening a can of worms on this one but why the heck are they 30cm?  Ron won't even take them anymore and I can't blame him.  They are a waste.  They need range plain and simple.  Make em 60cm, or 50cm, or 45cm, but 30cm is silly.

Markerlights: I can understand the reasoning for not wanting prolific use of these.  Limiting the number of units with them forces the Tau player to play a thoughtful game.  However there are certain units that I just shake my head at when I hear they don't have them.  Manta?  Uhmmm, the thing can fly in space, shoot across a battlefield, deploy troops, and yet it isn't technologically savvy enough to have one?  Heck, it is even modeled with a markerlight!  Things that make you go   .  Bump the machine to 750 and add a ML to it.  Yes, I am aware this will limit other options like aircraft, but that is the case with Eldar, Necrons, and a bunch of armies that field large titans.  Suck it up, buttercup.

Generally it feels like the army is close to where it needs to be with a few tweaks here and there.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

This has been noted as a typo about 5 times.

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For somebody that doesn't want to peel through 9 page threads of Tau arguments, how about you include what the real value is?

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

75cm range, same as the railgun on the hammerhead.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Mosc,

Are you sure you and yours are using the correct 6.2 version? Your comments on the BS are at least one generation back.

Re: Manta - All I'm going to say is that it needs testing. We have a IG player locally who can't wait to stick his two Shadowsword formations against it. More than that, all I can say is that some armies aren't going to like the Manta, some can hardly wait.

Regarding the ML, how long has this been in the list? Let me help you. A long time. It's only been in the past year (maybe not that long) that anyone has mentioned anything about the Manta beyond "I think" or "I wish". It's just now getting some playtest time. I want to make sure that it fits the stats it has. I want it to come in around 700 pts for other reasons (e.g. balance).

I'm not doubting that it was effective in the games you experienced. I also observed personally, a Great Garant rip mine nearly in two, with moderate dice rolls at mid-extreme range. It needs more testing.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Fighter-Bomber. Could you provide a little more information?

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

I'll get Ron to pop in here and leave his comments.  I have no idea what version of the list he's using but he said it was the most recent.  Who knows though.  With all the Tau threads out here he could have easily grabbed one back, not two though.

The Shadowsword argument holds no water with me.  Every titan dies when hit by a shadowsword.  I'd say deflectors are better than shields because at least they always work and can never be stripped.  Trying to balance a unit against Shadowswords is like trying to balance it against Death Strikes.  It's one of those UGH moments in Epic where you watch a quarter of your army die in one activation.  These things happen.  Same thing goes for being attacked by a Great Gargant.  Titans are susceptible to barrage weapons and nothing is going to change that for the Manta.

Another thought is that - balance aside - this would be the only war engine of its side in the entire game of Epic that fell below 750 points. Sample list.
Reaver DC 6- 750
Warlord DC 8- 850
Warlock DC 6- 850
Phantom DC 6- 750
Gargant DC 8- 750
Great Gargant- 12 850
Aeonic Orb DC 6- 750
Abbatoir DC 8- 750
Executor DC 6- 750 <-- kissing cousin to your Manta with half the firepower

-sidebar question- if a TKD3 weapon strikes a Tau Manta and does maximum damage, will the deflector save three times or only once?  This came up on one shot last game.

-A.D.D. moment- have you looked over the Raiders 2.0 DRAFT and the support craft rule?  It is supposed to mirror Manta activity although last I heard this was just moved to a unit note.  Your comments over on that thread would be helpful.

Tigershark Missile Strike Variant.  My bad, I thought it was a fighter-bomber but it appears to be just a bomber.  That's the one that chewed through me.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Save once which either saves or fails to save against all D3, same as if it were a WE with an invulnerable save e.g. a War Altar. Believe it's in the FAQ somewhere.

The Reaver and Gargant are only 650 points I believe.

Mosc you also fail to (realise?) mention it's always popped up which means there's nowhere to hide for this WE.... That is a BIG drawback with only 5+ shield saves, even if they are "always available."

Personally I wouldn't take one of these things unless I was playing a 4K+ game, as they're too much of a points sink in the Tau list and too much of gamble in a tourney when most players take WE hunters.

Ah, you are right.    Been a long while since I fielded either.  

With that said, only the Gargant comes in with 8DC and below 750.  I'm not saying there is a direct comparison, but something is weird about the point cost on the Manta.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Unlike all other titans a Manta is not fearless, massive disadvantage there - shouldn't be that hard to break and kill through BMs, particularly if you have some disrupt artillery and the likes and once it is you're going to have trouble hiding something that big and there goes your best unit and your BTS. I seem to remember The Real Chris started an indepth thread on the Manta a while back and his contention was that on the ground is was little underpowered. As well as an interest idea about character upgrades he also thinks the Manta should come with the Markerlight too and I agree also, a Manta does actually come with one.

I'm fully aware of its popped up status.  The Dark Eldar deal with the same thing with the Executor unit.  750 points for a support craft with 4 shadowfields, 6 DC, half the firepower, and two-thirds the range; but double the cargo, has a portal, and it is fearless.  That is a unit supported an short ranged army of infantry and light vehicles and it holds its own just fine.  

I know it isn't a direct comparison but what really is in Epic?  I'm just explaining that the Manta unit from my perspective worked just fine.  Now squabbling over 50 points isn't what I was trying to do.  It is an odd price for it however.  At a minimum I hope people walk away from this thread realizing the 700 point mark should definitely be a floor to the pricing - anything less than that is insanely cheap.  

And I understand the other arguments as well but I just don't see them being unique to the Manta.  In other words there are a lot of war engines that those same arguments people could apply them to but don't.  Point sink?  Same thing with other armies.  Problems with barrages?  Yup, seen that too.  Limited usage?  Not exactly breaking ground here with the Manta.  

And that brings me to another thing... Not fearless?  Take a look at the list above and I don't think there is a single titan/WE on there that isn't fearless.  That should give you a raised eyebrow too.

I suppose I see the Manta as deserving of fearless and a markerlight, and a price of 750 to 800. That would make it more consistent with other Epic units and consistent with the model itself when it comes to the ML.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

I think you just answered your own query here Mosc  

It's 700 now because it isn't fearless. It is different to all other WEs because of this and it's price reflects it  

I've used a Manta 3 time under the present stats (6.2).

In the last game, it was engaged at FF range by Marines. It (easily) lost the engagement and was broken. Criticals were rolled and the Manta lost it's Deflector. It died VERY quickly after that.

From my perspective it is underpowered.

FF5+ is silly on this unit. It should be better.
Lack of ML is wrong.
A non-Fearless Titan is really easy to kill.

It is a combat transport. It's point cost includes the transport ability. At some point in a game, it has to close with the enemy (to deliver it's cargo) at which point it's easily assaulted and broken. Once broken, it is dead.

Opponents of the Tau are easily overawed when they see a Manta on the table.
In my first game using one, my opponent just ignored it. I won.
In my second game, my opponent took a couple of pot shots at it but nothing serious. I lost.
In my third game, my opponent went after it with powerful assault based detachments. The Manta was dead by the end of the 2nd turn, along with all it's cargo (that was 1700pts wiped out or broken in one engagment for the loss of 1 Marine stand and 1 LandRaider Crusader... ugly And yes the cargo did get out and fight, it made no difference as the Tau FF ability is artificially nerfed to shape how the Tau play). Needless to say, I lost   .

I would've thought that a Necron force, with all it's good quality FF would be able to make short work of a Manta.

I've found that the Tau work better with more feet on the ground (so to speak). I'm including an Orca filled with Crisis Suits to hit anywhere on the board (once enemy AA is dealt with) but I've found that if I steer clear of Manta's, AX-1-0's, Barracuda's etc, I have more success (at 3000pts).

If all the concerns were addressed and the Manta improved, it would still be worth 700pts. At present it is overcosted.

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Using all the evidence we have available (IA3-Taros) on how the Manta behaves in combat, it:

1. Doesn't mind cruising over cities at night shooting at targets of opportunity (the Governor's Palace, Hydro Plant 23-30)

2. It doesn't mind bombarding deeply entrenched infantry from a distance (Hydro Plant 23-30)

3. It does not land troops in the middle of what Epic would consider an assault (Hydro Plant 23-30) preferring to drop troops out of range and allow them to close

4. When pressed during the Evacuation by the Raptor Landspeeders, the Manta's fled the battle.

That does not constitute Fearless behavior. That is performing what is expected of you under normal conditions.



I am not against the Manta possessing the ML. I have only stated that it needs to be tested. However, I do not intend to make the Manta a "Warlord with wings". The Manta is a very unique vehicle and it is my expectation that we develop it as such. It should be an attractive option, but neither mandatory (to win) or provide a competitive advantage...which is quite a tall order.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment