This is my reason for voting "NO" here... because in the case of this particular Chaos uprising, elements of a planetary Imperial Navy garrison also turned traitor.

So for this particular army list, having the Imperial Navy aircraft is fine.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Regardless of the particular window dressing fluff added to them e.g. Ghazghul’s Horde, Armageddon Steel Legion, the core lists were intended as typical representatives of their army, so any Space Marine chapter can make a list using the core list, Imperial Guard can run tank lists, infantry lists, air cav lists, etc from their core list. The Lost and the Damned list is a very chaotic list with plenty of Demon Engines (which as already discussed some or all of originate offworld), the typical representative of a very chaotic Demon Engine flyer in such an army are the Helltalons and Hellblades.

Anyway this particular invasion was - as far as I’m aware - just invented as background for the epic LaTD list. The units may not have existing back when the list was first written but there’s zero reason not to retroactively add Hellblades and Helltalons into that background and list as the default, even if they were to have had and used both in the war.

If Helltalons and Hellblades are going to be counted as 'daemonic' which I believe they can gain the upgrade in 40K, then they really should be given 'Invulnerable Save' (IS) in line with all other daemon engines. As far as I can tell, that is the only real arguement for including them into this list (being summoned as per BL suggestion), yet without the IS, it is a far stretch.

As a first time player of the list, I like the fact that it is a hostile Imp Guard & citizen force much in line with a genestealer cult force. Having chaos specific fliers that are not daemons would just be yet another addition that would dilute the flavour of the list.

Not a truth, just an opinion..

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

Still with the no crowd I'm afraid.

The Chaos Planes are part of the Traitor Navy forces, under the ultimate command of the Chaos Legions (I know there may be a few exceptions here being Chaos). Aside from a few upstart Aspiring Champions (who even the fluff notes have left their Legion) this list is not in contact with them.
I can swallow the idea of them summoning the Daemon Engines, but not a plane piloted by a Servitor. After all, they can't summon possessed Land Raiders, so I think it's simpler to stick to machines designed as Daemon Engines (i.e. not possessed at a later date), that have either been summoned to the planet, or possibly constructed locally in the case of the lower-tech ones.
I'm also sure that given time GW would have put out a Blood Pact/variant LaTD list which would have included the Traitor Navy and hence the planes.

I've voted No as I don't believe there is enough justification to make such a shift

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Voted No.

From my reading of the army it's an uprising, if a list is wanted with them in let's get another list done that's is at a later stage.

The flavour and theme of the LaTD list is the chaosness and demon engines - if you want a closer to the imperials list play the Vraks list, use the standard guard list or make up your own list of some description. The Hell flyers fit in a lot better with the theme of the list and invulnerable save is not some absolute feature of things in the list either e.g. Subjugator and Questor don't have it. Since creating chaos flyers all GW renegades chaos lists since have featured them, rather then have them using imperial ones [i]because it fits the themes and flavour of their list better[i] - they are with the Blood Pact and the Vraksian Renegades, the two major renegades lists of recent times, neither of which is as turned to chaos/demons as the LaTD list, which has even greater justification / for them.

Helltalons and Hellblades are inherently demonic to some degree, it helps them be so supernaturally agile and also warps reality around them, causing storms and weird chaotic weather effects whenever the planes are around in large numbers. Possessed Land Raiders are a Chaos Marine thing so obviously a no-go, but the aircraft are created a demon world in the Eye and widely sold off to the highest bidder. Having crew and being demonic are not necessarily mutually exclusive either - the background for the Tzeentch flyers leave it opens whether they have crew but the Doomwing models do have what looks like canopies and cockpits on their backs. The Nurgle Plague Tower caries troops and the Contagion Engines have windows in the building bits on it's outside - why would it if it never had crew?

Space Marines often operate independently in space as a rapid reaction force yet their epic list lets them take allied Thunderbolts and Marauders in their list - despite these aircraft being piloted by imperial navy pilots (there's a decree banning non transport marine aircraft) and therefore requiring both Imperial Navy and Space Marine craft to be present in the system. It's not really any different for the chaos renegade list to have their own aircraft in the list, even though these are off world allies too.


Pity, I think you're making the wrong call here.

Glyn, surely if those arguments were the case they could have Chaos Titans too?

I can understand the Marines and Guard having some of the same Naval assets acting as part of a wider Imperial army and can see the case for a correspnding Chaos list, but not this list...

I agree with this.

This maybe could set up 4 god specific cultist lists (maybe longer turned) based on the LandD list.

Sorry if this creates extra work Steve54.

This is not a "daemon world army out of the Eye of Terror" as Black Legion put forth.  It's an uprising on a world where the Imperial government was so lax and corrupt that they really didn't realize there were mutants and daemons boiling up in the middle of the society or that the defense forces were degenerating rapidly.

The concept of the list was not slick, high-tech daemon engines but effigies and altars the cultists had cobbled together in secret and summoned daemons to inhabit.  Same with their other equipment - assorted weapons, transports from whatever vehicle was handy, etc..  It's Mad Max warbands, not chaos-directed IG.  The daemon engines were thrown in not because of the thematics of the list but because of huge player demand to have something in which to use the old models.

So, I disagree that the daemon aircraft "fit better".  It's the units you're using for justification, the knights and towers,  that are actually out of place with respect to the theme of the list.

===

IMHO, L&D should be the "middle" list in terms of non-CSM chaos lists.

Early or moderate corruption/rebellion - something like Vraks or Alpha Legion-led uprising - lots of IG/PDF gear, reasonably competent human-style command and low level mutations (either small in number or kept to a very specific style)

Serious corruption/rebellion - like Stigmata L&D - substantial IG/PDF gear but mixed with non-standard, loss of the prior human-based command and control, higher levels of mutations

Eye of Terror armies - something like a "daemon world IG" list or the fan-based chaos squat stuff under discussion - unique chaos tech and daemonically-driven command

_________________
Neal

If the Stigmatus Covenant LatD army list is supposed to represent a recent uprising with "cobbled together" Daemon Engines then it has failed it's goal. Slaanesh Knights and Titans as well as Silver Towers woudn't be in this list then for example.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

It's not a "recent" uprising, it's a cobbled together force that's had time to fester... if one needs rationalization.

But that rationalization is purely that, as meta-game/development, the actual list itself was cobbled together in early, fan-based development, and as Neal already said: The daemon engines were thrown in not because of the thematics of the list but because of huge player demand to have something in which to use the old models.

There was no theme or goal or even backstory put into or directing the list, it was merely an "and the kitchen sink" list to get a bunch of old models in to publication and use in the "new" Epic.

Subsequent lists can "theme" themselves any way this wish, but that's not the purpose of the Stigmatus army list.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

@BL

_________________
Visit www.epic-battles.de the ultimate german epic site&forum!

All the more worse. Plenty of units added only because of Rule of Cool not because they fit the fluff of the list.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/